Kevin's Watch

From the GI:

John: At the end of The Illearth War, the Forestal Caerroil Wildwood says Hile Troy's attempt to use the white gold is "a Breaking of Law." How was that use a 'breaking of Law'?

SRD: Hmm. Keep in mind that when I wrote the first "Chronicles" I had no intention of going on. Under the circumstances, there were any number of questions that I didn't need to think about. Any answer I might offer you now involves retroactive reasoning, which I usually try to avoid.

But of course Hile Troy is not a "rightful" white gold wielder. And from a moral perspective (considering, for example, "the necessity of freedom"), handing over the ring out of a sense of defeat (Covenant just wants somebody else to take over his responsibilities) isn't really comparable to *marrying* someone with it. In one sense, Covenant's action is a surrender. But in another, it's an abdication. His surrender at the end of "White Gold Wielder" is entirely different.

(10/25/2010)

Does anybody else besides me not accept SRD's answer as sufficient?

I don't see Caerroil Wildwood's statement as problematic, I don't see any necessity of retroactive reasoning. I don't see that John has a real good question here. I believe that SRD had something simple in mind when he originally wrote down Wildwood's statement. And I'm certain he forgot the reasoning over the years, after so many books.

Isn't it simply a fact that a Forestal is a representative of Law (or we could say Nature), and that the very use of Wild Magic is in itself a breaking of Law? Within his own domain, a Forestal is like the police. He doesn't care who has the weapon drawn, it wouldn't have mattered to him if it was Covenant himself who tried to rescue Elena. The very act of firing the "weapon," white gold, in a physical, unnatural violation of Law is what counts here.

Wildwood gave another reason. It is a breaking of Law, a violation of Earthpower, pure and simple; but there was also Troy's promise to the Forestal which he would not have kept, and in fact would have forgotten about completely holding such power in his hands.

So John, if you're lurking around here, I hope this response was adequate.

It is my opinion that SRD made lots of mistakes, and had ideas that were not exactly fully-formed.* We've discussed and debated many things here over the years. This was one of them. Nobody ever came up with an answer that seemed correct to everyone. You could be right - maybe the use of wild magic is against Wildwood's Law.

Or maybe Troy wasn't a "rightful" wielder. Wild magic is a paradox; and the one who wields it must be one as well. As capable of damning as saving. Troy couldn't intentionally harm the Land under any circumstances. Covenant already had, in the worst way possible, with the rape of Lena.

*Not that I necessarily have a problem with this. What SRD did do well was beyond what anybody else has ever done, imo. My writings, if there were any, would be riddled with nits to pick far beyond what SRD has, and would not also contain the most sublime, moving writing ever.

Fist and Faith wrote:It is my opinion that SRD made lots of mistakes, and had ideas that were not exactly fully-formed.* We've discussed and debated many things here over the years. This was one of them. Nobody ever came up with an answer that seemed correct to everyone. You could be right - maybe the use of wild magic is against Wildwood's Law.

Or maybe Troy wasn't a "rightful" wielder. Wild magic is a paradox; and the one who wields it must be one as well. As capable of damning as saving. Troy couldn't intentionally harm the Land under any circumstances. Covenant already had, in the worst way possible, with the rape of Lena.

*Not that I necessarily have a problem with this. What SRD did do well was beyond what anybody else has ever done, imo. My writings, if there were any, would be riddled with nits to pick far beyond what SRD has, and would not also contain the most sublime, moving writing ever.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Wildwood's Law." He is just the guardian of the trees and the Earthpower they represent. Technically, it is the Creator's Law, which is Earthpower. Wild Magic, by its nature, is clearly a violation of that Law.

The Lord's have their laws. The Stonedowners have theirs. No reason to think Wildwood doesn't have his own. It's his forest, and he can run it however he wants, eh? One law could be No Use Of Wild Magic!!! If he can stop it - as he was able to stop Troy, who had no mastery yet - he will.

Just brainstorming. I'm not saying it's a serious theory.

Fist and Faith wrote:The Lord's have their laws. The Stonedowners have theirs. No reason to think Wildwood doesn't have his own. It's his forest, and he can run it however he wants, eh? One law could be No Use Of Wild Magic!!! If he can stop it - as he was able to stop Troy, who had no mastery yet - he will.

Just brainstorming. I'm not saying it's a serious theory.

I agree completely, they always have their own laws. The ur-viles have laws determining them as a race, a Weird. And one of Wildwood's laws might be "no campfires allowed."

And then, sometimes, you see the word "Law" capitalized like it is in this case, and then you see it like that in other places too, and the context always lies beyond the mortal realm with its mortal laws. The context is always something akin to Earthpower.

My take on it was a little different. I took Breaking of Law as the attempt to escape destiny. If Troy managed to use the ring to rescue Elena he would have undone the consequences of her actions. He would have dodged the destiny he accepted on himself (whatever the Forestal chose that to be). He would have taken from Covenant the consequences for his inaction. He would also break the Law of bodily similarities of those who returned from the Land to their own world.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:And then, sometimes, you see the word "Law" capitalized like it is in this case, and then you see it like that in other places too, and the context always lies beyond the mortal realm with its mortal laws. The context is always something akin to Earthpower.

Yeah. But knowing Wildwood's arrogance, No Wild Magic In The Forest!! might, in his opinion, be such a Law.

No, that answer isn't satisfactory to me. Heh. It's really a difficult question. If the white gold could be given freely - indeed, Foul's plans depended on that being the case, and the end of WGW seems to have proven him correct - then Troy should have been able to be a rightful wielder. And since he was able to draw power from it, it all seems to be following Law. So what's wrong?

Fist and Faith wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:And then, sometimes, you see the word "Law" capitalized like it is in this case, and then you see it like that in other places too, and the context always lies beyond the mortal realm with its mortal laws. The context is always something akin to Earthpower.

Yeah. But knowing Wildwood's arrogance, No Wild Magic In The Forest!! might, in his opinion, be such a Law.

No, that answer isn't satisfactory to me. Heh. It's really a difficult question. If the white gold could be given freely - indeed, Foul's plans depended on that being the case, and the end of WGW seems to have proven him correct - then Troy should have been able to be a rightful wielder. And since he was able to draw power from it, it all seems to be following Law. So what's wrong?

Hile Troy apparently produced flames with the ring, at any rate. That would be one thing wrong. As far as Law is concerned, Wild Magic is just the exact opposite of Law. This point is crucial to understanding the issue. Wild Magic cannot be controlled by Law. That does not mean there are no conditions set on its use. Those conditions are not set by Law or Earthpower, but rather, by the fact that it is a white gold wedding ring.

From the GI:

To what you’ve already said, I would add: the wedding band is a symbol of *voluntary* commitment, a promise motivated by love. Of course, this hasn’t always been true historically. Nor is it always true now. But in Western societies it *is* the idea behind the choice to get married, and it has been for quite a while. It isn’t biologically driven (procreation can occur without it: duh), so it doesn’t resemble the bonds that attach most parents to their children. And it isn’t compelled because it can’t be (although it can be simulated on a temporary basis for manipulative reasons): love doesn’t work that way. No, it’s a *choice*--which lies at the heart of Covenant’s “ring” dilemma as you’ve described it.

Necessity of freedom.

In LFB, SRD wrote:First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be, and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure.

Wild magic is essential for the survival of Law. Yes, it's Law's opposite. But is simply using it a "breaking of Law"? Clearly not. That is, not in the "It is forbidden" sense. The Creator chose Covenant to go to the Land, hoping he would save it with wild magic. And would he have made it possible to use wild magic if it was forbidden? I think mere use of it is not the breaking of Law Wildwood was talking about.

So is the problem nothing more than the fact that Troy was using it? How do we explain all the talk about it being freely given? At first glance, as you said, I don't find SRD's answer sufficient. He put conditions on what "freely given" means. However, it is an explanation from the author, so I guess I'll accept it. Heh. It's entirely possible that none of the characters who talked about it had the fullest possible understanding of it. "Freely given" isn't the whole story, but there's no reason any of them would have been expected to know all there is to know about a substance and power that has never been seen in the world. When did Atiaran, of Foamfollower, or Amok, or Wildwood ever use, touch, or even see it? It's a legend to them. They didn't have operating instructions. So sure, "freely given" could have been only a part of the conditions.

Fist and Faith wrote:

In LFB, SRD wrote:First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be, and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure.

Wild magic is essential for the survival of Law. Yes, it's Law's opposite. But is simply using it a "breaking of Law"? Clearly not. That is, not in the "It is forbidden" sense. The Creator chose Covenant to go to the Land, hoping he would save it with wild magic. And would he have made it possible to use wild magic if it was forbidden? I think mere use of it is not the breaking of Law Wildwood was talking about.

So is the problem nothing more than the fact that Troy was using it? How do we explain all the talk about it being freely given? At first glance, as you said, I don't find SRD's answer sufficient. He put conditions on what "freely given" means. However, it is an explanation from the author, so I guess I'll accept it. Heh. It's entirely possible that none of the characters who talked about it had the fullest possible understanding of it. "Freely given" isn't the whole story, but there's no reason any of them would have been expected to know all there is to know about a substance and power that has never been seen in the world. When did Atiaran, of Foamfollower, or Amok, or Wildwood ever use, touch, or even see it? It's a legend to them. They didn't have operating instructions. So sure, "freely given" could have been only a part of the conditions.

I think we're getting side-tracked on this. The ring was freely given; it was not freely given back, however, and that is another issue altogether. I'm still looking for the idea that will change my mind on this. I agree that the Creator would not have minded at all if Covenant took up the ring against Foul. Perhaps that was His goal all along. If so, he chose the wrong person for the task, or he completely misunderstood Covenant and the law of leprosy. Perhaps the latter. Or, speculatively, maybe the Creator was hoping Hile Troy would use the ring against Foul.

Forestals have their own understanding of these issues. Wildwood could not have known the Creator's desire in this instance. All Wildwood knows is Law, and trees. The forests are a product of Law, and without Law they cannot last. Nothing can last, the very Earth itself is alive with Law. The use of wild magic is, by its very nature, a violation of Law, thus a significant threat to trees. Wild Magic is destruction incarnate, otherwise its possession would not form any part of Foul's intentions.

But then there is the Arch of Time. I think the whole idea is taken too literally. The ideas of an Arch and a Keystone were formed as symbols for human comprehension. I have no doubt that the song of wild magic is correct in that wild magic is "graven" (whatever that means) in everything. And that white gold can either unleash or control this wild magic. But in doing so, one must violate the strictures that keep existence itself from flying apart due to the dissolution of Law. One cannot release the hydrogen from water without also releasing the oxygen, and then you no longer have water because hydrogen and oxygen are essential to building the water, just as wild magic (Lawlessness, chaos) and Law (order) are essential to building the Land. Everything in the Land's universe is a product of opposites. The new Staff is a product of opposites, structure vs. fluidity.

Forestals live out their days fully aware of the stringent nature of their task, they live, eat and breathe by absolutes. But they are representatives of Law, not wild magic. They represent the Law of the Land's Creation and seek to further its preservation, by this means preserving the remaining forests. But the nature of wild magic and its summoning is not unknown to them by any means. They are fully aware that releasing of wild magic (as either unleashed or controlled) is a direct threat to the Law established at the Land's Creation, therefore either a direct or indirect threat to the forests.

By the time the Second Chrons comes along the issue becomes a bit more complicated. Suddenly we have the idea that Covenant is the "rightful wielder" of the ring. But we cannot apply this back to the 1st Chrons in retrospect because at the time SRD wrote the scene on Gallow's Howe he only had a certain idea to work with, not the later one. And that idea was not complicated by any "rightful wielder" rule. It was simply that Law and Wild Magic are exact opposites combined in one Creation. And further, that chaos, when released from the structure of the Land, which is Time, that binds it to Law, is destructive to order.

I think this issue can also be confused with the idea of breaking certain specific Laws, such as the Laws of Life and Death. And there are hints of other Laws, such as rule over the oceans, a Law which a certain Raver almost violated with the Illearth Stone while bending the ocean to his will during the destruction of Coercri.

I'm very certain that Wildwood would also have disallowed other uses of lore that were not expressions of Earthpower. The lore of the ur-viles, for example, is unnatural and could be used for the unmaking of forests.

Edit - Yet there is this difference: remember that Wildwood allowed the white gold ring among his trees out of respect. I sincerely doubt that he would have granted the same respect to the lore of ur-viles. Wild Magic is just as necessary to Creation as Law, the lore of ur-viles is not.

As I said, for me Troy was trying to break the most basic of the Laws: the Law of Time, that from causes follow consequences.

What he wanted to do with the power was to undo things, to get him and Elena back to the good old times he believed they had before Covenant showed up.

Spoiler

If he had succeeded he would have broken the Laws more thoroughly than Linden did when she resurrected Thomas Covenant from the dead and thereby brought the end of the world.

And I suppose throwing bolts of fire in the middle of a Forest, particularly after he swore to be its protector didn't help any either.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:As I said, for me Troy was trying to break the most basic of the Laws: the Law of Time, that from causes follow consequences.

What he wanted to do with the power was to undo things, to get him and Elena back to the good old times he believed they had before Covenant showed up.

Spoiler

If he had succeeded he would have broken the Laws more thoroughly than Linden did when she resurrected Thomas Covenant from the dead and thereby brought the end of the world.

And I suppose throwing bolts of fire in the middle of a Forest, particularly after he swore to be its protector didn't help any either.

You forgot to mention Troy's breaking of his promise to the Forestal. That we can at least say for certain. As for the rest, we know that Forestals are foremost about protecting the forests, the breaking of Laws threatens them since they are foundational to the Earth itself.

As for the rest, it's obvious he wanted to save Elena, but I don't know if it was for those precise reasons except to say that, in general, he was probably in love with her.