Orlion reads The Malazan Book of the Fallen

[I'm Murrin]

Yeah, Erikson told people Kruppe would be the PoV before the book came out. And it's subtle, but you can recognise his voice in a lot of places.

[Orlion]

Been a while, but I'm back to The Crippled God. I just finished part 3, and all I have to say is holy s#!+. Even the whole Yan Torvis storyline is starting to get interesting. And the Frokul Assail! Finally, they get they're spot in the sun

Spoiler

and their faces devoured by a recently slain God of Death

This is turning out to be a really enjoyable volume, and I'm under the impression that it gets better... so yay!

So, a question I have is whether or not Traveller and Dessembrae are Dasseam Ultor split in two somehow? That's kinda the impression I get.

And those jade giants? Sounds like they're alien gods of some sort?

[Avatar]

I think Traveller is an aspect of Dessembrae. Like his manifestation/avatar.

Remember at the end of...uh...Crimson Guard when he meets Hood? Hood says something like "Since you're present in that aspect..."

--A

[Orlion]

Really? Damn that my copy of RotCG is so far away

And how about everyone wanting to destroy humanity? Make's Karsa's desire to overthrow civilization seem tame...

[Onos T'oolan]

Over at malazanempire.com, one guy said this:

Back in TB, Dassem is referred to as a living man who has ascended most of the way to godhood.

I think it comes down to aspect - when Dassem is acting in his 'Traveller' identity, he is essentially Dassem Ultor, an extremely powerful swordsman (sufficiently powerful to fight full blown ascendents like the Avowed) - keeping in mind that before he became Dessembrae, Dassem was the Knight of Death and was worshipped by Malazan soldiers in some fashion, so he was already way ahead of the baseline power for a 'mere' human and we saw in NoK that even after his falling out with Hood, Das' retained most if not all of that power. Wehn Dassem is acting in his Dessembrae aspect he can do many other things like warren-walk and even call on significantly more power. There is some overlap in the two identities ...

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SPOILERS FOR TOLL THE HOUNDS DO NOT DO NOT DNOT NOT READ THIS SPOILER
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at the finale of Toll when Dassem arrives in Darujhistan. he's practically blind with the impetus of his mission to kill Hood. Baruk's demon spots him and is stunned at the power level. As he approaches Hood, we see the Dessembrae cultists are in the city and praying hard. Now this is significant because in this moment, Dassem's two aspects are essentially united - his 'human' mission for venegance on Hood springs from the death of his daughter, and his god-aspect of Tragedy was triggered by the death of his daughter, which brought him to this point. So unlike the various conflicts we've seen Dassem in prior to the finish of Toll (vs the Edur in HoC, vs the Edur and the mages' golem's on Jacuruku in RCG, and vs Skinner in RCG), at the finish of Toll this is Dessembrae the God and Dassem the ascendent former Knight in full power and practically blinded by BOTH his aspects (Vengeance and Tragedy) with the added bonus of Rake's old sword with all that it brings to the table which is saying a lot.

[aliantha]

I've wondered all along who Traveller was. So Traveller = Dassem Ultor = Dessembrae (in his various aspects). Thanks, guys!

[I'm Murrin]

Dassem Ultor is Traveller - Dassem never died, remember. He's Ascended, but he still exists as a mortal.

The gods are practically walking metaphors. Like how Poliel, the lady of pestilence, was a modern aspect of the ancient worm D'rek, and was worshipped in both forms - until Ganoes murdered Poliel, destroying her... and leaving D'rek, the Worm, to re-emerge, because her only living worshipper was a devotee not of Poliel, but of the Worm of Autumn. They were the same god, but not. Belief gives them shape - hence Poliel slaughtering all of her followers so that she could redefine herself as needed.

In the Crippled God Onos T'oolan suggests that by conferring upon Dassem the title of First Sword, Logros put upon him the faith of the T'lan Imass, forcing him to godhood - and, since he was sworn to Hood already, ensuring that things wouldn't go well for him. No god likes a rival.

[Avatar]

... hence Poliel slaughtering all of her followers so that she could redefine herself as needed...

Yeah, good point. There's plenty about how it's the worshippers that shape the God, rather than the reverse. Mael and Mallik Rel, for example.

--A

[Orlion]

... hence Poliel slaughtering all of her followers so that she could redefine herself as needed...

Yeah, good point. There's plenty about how it's the worshippers that shape the God, rather than the reverse. Mael and Mallik Rel, for example.

--A

Wasn't it D'rek that slaughtered all but two of her followers? (Doubt she could kill one of them)

Finished Crippled God! Whew! Got to work, though, so maybe more later!

[I'm Murrin]

It was Poliel, but they're the same god. Remember in The Bonehunters, Paran goes into the last temple she went to and where she is present among all the dead priests, and kills her with otataral.

[Orlion]

It was Poliel, but they're the same god. Remember in The Bonehunters, Paran goes into the last temple she went to and where she is present among all the dead priests, and kills her with otataral.

No, Poliel (as described somewhere in the Crippled God) was a newer goddess, a more modern interpretation of what D'rek represented, but they are two seperate entities. Kinda like how Treach and Fener are gods of war (along with Togg and Fanadrey), but they are not four aspects of each other, they are four different beings. Further, D'rek still exists after Paran kills Poliel... because they're different.

[I'm Murrin]

Different but the same, in a way. Poliel killed the followers of D'rek, because they were an influence that was keeping Poliel from being the dominant incarnation of that god.

(Treach had to die to become a god. Dassem Ultor has a dual nature because he has become a god but has not died and still holds on to his mortal self in his search for revenge. Poliel's death need not have meant what it did, if not for other circumstances.)

Poliel may have been a mortal creature (she was clearly primitive Forkrul Assail, as was her sister Soliel) that became worshipped by the cult, who over time associated her with the Worm and made the two of them the same; her response in The Bonehunters was to murder the followers of D'rek so that she could end that influence - it was the same decision that Errastas took when he murdered Feather Witch, because she was able to change his nature.

Poliel died not just because she was a living thing Paran killed - she died because Paran chose to deny her place in the deck and, implicitly, confirm D'rek in her place. This was also made possible because of her slaughter of the priests - she murdered the priests of D'rek, but because of the way the cult had evolved, they were her own priests as well. As a result, she left only Banaschar, and so it was possible for her to die and for D'rek to become dominant.

Poliel and D'rek's cults had merged and the distinction between the two gods almost entirely disappeared (both symbolically and, because of the way faith works in the Malazan world, literally); Poliel's actions in The Bonehunters ultimately allowed them to become seperate entities again.

[Orlion]

I was under the impression (which I should have used before instead of the 'No'...sheesh, I'm so confrontational ) That D'rek killed its followers because they wanted blood to help the Crippled God. D'rek didn't want to join up with the Crippled God, so it used this demand as a loophole to kill its followers, thus freeing it (as you pointed out earlier). Kinda like the relationship between Feather Witch and the Errant or Mael and Mallick Rel. Poliel, on the other hand, joined up with the Crippled God, hoping to use its powers to wipe the Earth clean of humans and thus curing Burn of its own sickness (odd, that.)

Of course, there is some precedent with Traveler and Dessembrae. I just don't think that's the case here... I'm even beginning to wonder if Dessembrae might just be an invention (or creation) of 'worshippers' that were heavily inspired by Dassem Ultor...

[I'm Murrin]

Of course, there is some precedent with Traveler and Dessembrae. I just don't think that's the case here... I'm even beginning to wonder if Dessembrae might just be an invention (or creation) of 'worshippers' that were heavily inspired by Dassem Ultor...

Again, I think that he is both a seperate entity that was created by the will of the followers and simultaneously the ascended mortal man.

[Orlion]

Of course, there is some precedent with Traveler and Dessembrae. I just don't think that's the case here... I'm even beginning to wonder if Dessembrae might just be an invention (or creation) of 'worshippers' that were heavily inspired by Dassem Ultor...

Again, I think that he is both a seperate entity that was created by the will of the followers and simultaneously the ascended mortal man.

Kinda what I'm leaning towards... since Dassem Ultor never died... other characters that "ascend" when their infamy causes them to gather worshipers were dead and thus able to be placed in the pantheon by their followerers.

Since Dassem never died, though... we get this interesting, if puzzling, duo.