Foul is not just the flaw in the perfection, but a necessary part of it, without him there is nothing to strive against. The Nirvana of the land would lack appreciation without the possibility of the opposite, like light having no meaning without darkness. Many of the so called evils of the Land are in fact twisted or corrupted by Foul or manipulated into positions of being perceived as evil and as we are seeing, some of these are able to negotiate.
I also wonder about the Creator's level in the pantheon that has unfolded; is he the "Jehovah" figure? Certainly there are others who wield great power and The Land is only one land in a world with lands beyond The Land. Is this a domestic dispute only? What of the Giants....if this were a war of good and evil with the world at stake, would there not be a whole army? Would not all the powers of other lands be vieing for a stake in events?
How bad is it?
Moderators: dlbpharmd, High Lord Tolkien
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
-
peter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 11570
- Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
- Location: Another time. Another place.
- Been thanked: 6 times
The Giants are involved to the degree where numbers are relevent. Lostson Longwrath's role has yet to be revealed and and it is unlikely that greater numbers of Giants would be of any more efficacy against the Worm than those already led by ....(damn - I've forgotten her name, can't be good!).... the Iron Maiden (we'll call her 
). The Giants true value in dealing with the Worm will I believe be in the knowledge they bring of the Worm and its attendant mythology. The idea above of the Despisers necessity as a foil for the Earth(?)'s beauty and goodness is one that rings true - in trying to envisage the effect of absence of 'Evil' and it's effect on 'Good' I inevitably call up the image of the Elohim - though as we know they have 'shadows' of thier own to deal with!
As to the Creator and Foul - Local squabble or Universal struggle: who knows, but I've got a feeling wer'e going to find out shortly!
). The Giants true value in dealing with the Worm will I believe be in the knowledge they bring of the Worm and its attendant mythology. The idea above of the Despisers necessity as a foil for the Earth(?)'s beauty and goodness is one that rings true - in trying to envisage the effect of absence of 'Evil' and it's effect on 'Good' I inevitably call up the image of the Elohim - though as we know they have 'shadows' of thier own to deal with!As to the Creator and Foul - Local squabble or Universal struggle: who knows, but I've got a feeling wer'e going to find out shortly!
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
I think there'd still be suffcient evil/corruption, etc without Foul's presence, if things such as the Illearth Stone and people like Kasreyn of the Gyre are still present in the Earth. It's true everything gives meaning to its opposite, but having an immortal evil being pitted against mortal good beings for the whole of existence seems pretty out of whack to me. Covenant tells us to "think of the Creator and Foul like brothers;" this to me indicates they have similar roles to fulfill, just on opposite ends of the spectrum.
And personally, I hope the struggle with Foul is going to take us outside the Arch of Time for this last bout; it would be way more mind-blowing that way
And personally, I hope the struggle with Foul is going to take us outside the Arch of Time for this last bout; it would be way more mind-blowing that way
^"Amusing, worth talking to, completely insane...pick your favourite." - Avatar
https://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
https://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
-
Frostheart Grueburn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1827
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:47 pm
- Location: Gianthome
Well, finished it and liked it, hard to decide whether it bests FR or the other way round. Too bad I 'happened to know' about a half of the important plot twists beforehand, thanks to my damned curiosity, Amazon, and Wikipedia. Since this thread is so tipsy with spoilers, I'm not sure where to use the tags, but suppose it can be edited later?
The book's been criticized of people merely dillydallying about, but that scarcely bothered me. In fact, I was perhaps 120 pages in, when I finally realized this must've been one of the 150-page stretches of 'standing and prattling'. Guess I merely found the concept of a world so nigh an actual Götterdämmerung/Ragnarökr (indeed, the Norse mythology fangirl in me kept humming all the while; we have a kind of Jörmungandr writhing about, the sun and stars vanish, the sea swallows the earth, even Giants are involved, even if they don't battle against the Aesir....) too fascinating to pay attention to the lack of action.
Another aspect which struck me as interesting was the stark difference between this and traditional fantasy: one gets eventually bored of all those barbarians in furry underwear, dragons hoarding treasure, trolls with the IQ of half a starfish, and busty tavern wenches. Haven't ever read a thematically similar fantasy book.
A few mentions of SRD named as the Dostoyevsky of fantasy pops up here and there, and I concur. Not much sword-flinging occurred in The House of the Dead or Crime and Punishment (alright, this is a poor analogy, as these cannot be regarded as fantasy, but parallels exist in the form of slowly unfolding or accumulating psychological tension), yet at least I've regarded them as brilliant novels. Tastes do vary, and I accept that.
Nevertheless, a slow pace doesn’t vex me, if it encases such Dostoyevsky-ish pressure as many of the 'chatty' portions here.
Now, on to some other points...
Pros:
-Covenant's back. I greatly missed his thought processes, as Linden, after the 2nd chrons, has become such a redundancy machine. "I made the staff. It's mine. I need my staff. Did I mention it's mine?" Yesyes, we get the point this woman needs a big, hard staff to sustain herself. On the other hand, oddly enough I find her less annoying when she's angsting as a result of her own failures. It's the arrogant confidence and deliberate neglecting of all warnings in the previous tomes that induced teeth-gritting (not that TC's whining in the 1st chrons was particularly enjoyable...).
-SWMNBN. Might be a Mrs. Wannabe-Voldie on some level, but personally found her chillingly terrifying, particularly after Elena's fate. The scene with TC facing her sorely needs some fanart. ;D
-Mercy given to poor ol' haunted Kevin. Brought tears into my eyes.
-Jeremiah's return to sanity and his bone construct
-Stave, the first Haruchai I've liked
-The insequent. Perhaps dei ex machina -ish, but as characters, quite engaging
-They're sadly underdeveloped, but I still enjoy the presence of the Swordmainnir. The very least Coldspray and Grueburn possess more personality than Liand and wosshername-with-a-hand-on-his-shoulder and the other Raman loadstone put together. This band of huge, damn badass ladies who fight like berserkers and yet soon thereafter are able to progress into childlike mirth and adventurousness, even respectable funeral songs, feels just refreshing. Perhaps they're sketchy, but the very least don't bloody well snivel about broken nails or whether their Nth ex-boyfriend had OMIGOSH found, like, a new gf and OMGOMG, like, she's SOOO trashy, like, HOMG. Right. I may harbor some bias, thanks to my long-lasting love of certain branches of mythology. (I don't know, should I have posted my views on the Giants thread instead?)
-The whole episode with Covenant and the humbled after the split-up with Linden
Cons:
-Linden's repetitive repetition of repetition. Even so, she's more tolerable than in ROTE
-Lack of detail in the Land; everything degenerates into a blur of gray and deserty-something, can't really even recall where the company traveled after the subterranean passages
-Altogether too rudimentary supporting characters too scantly described. Have hard time f. ex. remembering the names of the Ramen. Aside from Coldspray and Longwrath, what do the Giants even look like? Eg. Grueburn cracks into speech every now and then, but apparently the reader is left to the mercy of his or her own imagination about whether she's old or young, dark or blonde, etc.
-Longwrath's absence. Would've been interested in learning more about him
-The 'true names' hack/trope. This just plain annoyed me
The whole LC brick-pile needs a re-read, as seems to be the general case with SRD's books. But keeping a breathing break and going to slink into the worlds of GRRM and Steven Erikson for a twinkling.
Wasn't sure where to post my review, so selected this thread.
The book's been criticized of people merely dillydallying about, but that scarcely bothered me. In fact, I was perhaps 120 pages in, when I finally realized this must've been one of the 150-page stretches of 'standing and prattling'. Guess I merely found the concept of a world so nigh an actual Götterdämmerung/Ragnarökr (indeed, the Norse mythology fangirl in me kept humming all the while; we have a kind of Jörmungandr writhing about, the sun and stars vanish, the sea swallows the earth, even Giants are involved, even if they don't battle against the Aesir....) too fascinating to pay attention to the lack of action.
Another aspect which struck me as interesting was the stark difference between this and traditional fantasy: one gets eventually bored of all those barbarians in furry underwear, dragons hoarding treasure, trolls with the IQ of half a starfish, and busty tavern wenches. Haven't ever read a thematically similar fantasy book.A few mentions of SRD named as the Dostoyevsky of fantasy pops up here and there, and I concur. Not much sword-flinging occurred in The House of the Dead or Crime and Punishment (alright, this is a poor analogy, as these cannot be regarded as fantasy, but parallels exist in the form of slowly unfolding or accumulating psychological tension), yet at least I've regarded them as brilliant novels. Tastes do vary, and I accept that.
Nevertheless, a slow pace doesn’t vex me, if it encases such Dostoyevsky-ish pressure as many of the 'chatty' portions here.Now, on to some other points...
Pros:
-Covenant's back. I greatly missed his thought processes, as Linden, after the 2nd chrons, has become such a redundancy machine. "I made the staff. It's mine. I need my staff. Did I mention it's mine?" Yesyes, we get the point this woman needs a big, hard staff to sustain herself. On the other hand, oddly enough I find her less annoying when she's angsting as a result of her own failures. It's the arrogant confidence and deliberate neglecting of all warnings in the previous tomes that induced teeth-gritting (not that TC's whining in the 1st chrons was particularly enjoyable...).
-SWMNBN. Might be a Mrs. Wannabe-Voldie on some level, but personally found her chillingly terrifying, particularly after Elena's fate. The scene with TC facing her sorely needs some fanart. ;D
-Mercy given to poor ol' haunted Kevin. Brought tears into my eyes.
-Jeremiah's return to sanity and his bone construct
-Stave, the first Haruchai I've liked
-The insequent. Perhaps dei ex machina -ish, but as characters, quite engaging
-They're sadly underdeveloped, but I still enjoy the presence of the Swordmainnir. The very least Coldspray and Grueburn possess more personality than Liand and wosshername-with-a-hand-on-his-shoulder and the other Raman loadstone put together. This band of huge, damn badass ladies who fight like berserkers and yet soon thereafter are able to progress into childlike mirth and adventurousness, even respectable funeral songs, feels just refreshing. Perhaps they're sketchy, but the very least don't bloody well snivel about broken nails or whether their Nth ex-boyfriend had OMIGOSH found, like, a new gf and OMGOMG, like, she's SOOO trashy, like, HOMG. Right. I may harbor some bias, thanks to my long-lasting love of certain branches of mythology.
(I don't know, should I have posted my views on the Giants thread instead?)-The whole episode with Covenant and the humbled after the split-up with Linden
Cons:
-Linden's repetitive repetition of repetition. Even so, she's more tolerable than in ROTE
-Lack of detail in the Land; everything degenerates into a blur of gray and deserty-something, can't really even recall where the company traveled after the subterranean passages
-Altogether too rudimentary supporting characters too scantly described. Have hard time f. ex. remembering the names of the Ramen. Aside from Coldspray and Longwrath, what do the Giants even look like? Eg. Grueburn cracks into speech every now and then, but apparently the reader is left to the mercy of his or her own imagination about whether she's old or young, dark or blonde, etc.
-Longwrath's absence. Would've been interested in learning more about him
-The 'true names' hack/trope. This just plain annoyed me
The whole LC brick-pile needs a re-read, as seems to be the general case with SRD's books. But keeping a breathing break and going to slink into the worlds of GRRM and Steven Erikson for a twinkling.
Wasn't sure where to post my review, so selected this thread.
-
dougkeenan
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:07 pm
- Location: Indianapolis
- Contact:
I re-read the entire thread just to find this quote. Can't say it any better, except I'm not sure he's lost it rather the cost of "finding it" seems to have been some deep dark stuff.Cail wrote:Donaldson's lost it, and these last three books have been shadows of his prior work. Thanks Steve for giving me back something broken.
He can still pull off scenes that inspire that ol' familiar frisson, like the water palace, also the Stave/Galt reveal, and Jeremiah's bone-release. But I felt no chemistry between Pahni/Liand (yet I bet she bears his child to Revelstone), in fact there's little spirit or passion at all here except for the Harrow and hey wtf how did that happen so quickly?
Bright spot: I won't be expecting his best game for the last book.
*shrug* to each his own, yes?
i've been reading SRD over the years, and my taste in literature has been developing in a similar vein to his writing style. So the Last chronicles work well for me. His development as a person and author has just led him in this direction.
But it is different from what he wrote before, so I won't begrudge your opinion. Just disagree with it
i've been reading SRD over the years, and my taste in literature has been developing in a similar vein to his writing style. So the Last chronicles work well for me. His development as a person and author has just led him in this direction.
But it is different from what he wrote before, so I won't begrudge your opinion. Just disagree with it
Well, I'm not nearly the literary critic that most of you seem to be. And my memory for detail is not nearly as sharp as yours either.
Still, I'd like to share my thoughts on LC so far, and AATE in particular.
In general, I like Linden when she has Covenant to play off against. I found the first two books very difficult reads, mostly because Linden by herself is almost insufferable to me. So I was glad to have Covenant back in the picture, to some degree at least.
Another observation is that it seems to me that crises are being dragged out so incredibly long in LC. While I expected that the last book would be the climax to the story, and that much of the first three books would include necessary steps along the way, I can't help feeling that little of successful substance has occured, even though we are now 3/4 of the way through the last tale.
I had written some specifics, but then got to wondering about the concerns about spoilers, so I deleted them. I'd be happy to share if someone makes it clear that it's ok, or directs me to another thread.
Despite the things I found aggravating, I still find myself enthralled with SD's work. I am not disappointed with what he gave me to read, or how well it was prepared. I love that he causes me, someone who tends to think he has a fairly decent vocabulary and grasp of the written word, to read with a thick dictionary beside me.
It's a pity to have so long before the tale is concluded. But perhaps it is for the best.
Perhaps this time is necessary for me to re-read what has come before so that I can better understand what is to come.
Still, I'd like to share my thoughts on LC so far, and AATE in particular.
In general, I like Linden when she has Covenant to play off against. I found the first two books very difficult reads, mostly because Linden by herself is almost insufferable to me. So I was glad to have Covenant back in the picture, to some degree at least.
Another observation is that it seems to me that crises are being dragged out so incredibly long in LC. While I expected that the last book would be the climax to the story, and that much of the first three books would include necessary steps along the way, I can't help feeling that little of successful substance has occured, even though we are now 3/4 of the way through the last tale.
I had written some specifics, but then got to wondering about the concerns about spoilers, so I deleted them. I'd be happy to share if someone makes it clear that it's ok, or directs me to another thread.
Despite the things I found aggravating, I still find myself enthralled with SD's work. I am not disappointed with what he gave me to read, or how well it was prepared. I love that he causes me, someone who tends to think he has a fairly decent vocabulary and grasp of the written word, to read with a thick dictionary beside me.
It's a pity to have so long before the tale is concluded. But perhaps it is for the best.
Perhaps this time is necessary for me to re-read what has come before so that I can better understand what is to come.
-
Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
No need to worry about spoilers in this specific forum
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
-
Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
I don't think there are as many literary critics as it seems...and even if there were, the ones who are "most qualified" in a technical sense disagree as widely/sharply as those who are only qualified by having a thought and reading a lot. [which, btw, isn't a dismissal/insult to anyone...lit. is much more fluid/accessible/open than bridge-building or physics]bworl wrote:Well, I'm not nearly the literary critic that most of you seem to be. And my memory for detail is not nearly as sharp as yours either.
Still, I'd like to share my thoughts on LC so far, and AATE in particular.
In general, I like Linden when she has Covenant to play off against. I found the first two books very difficult reads, mostly because Linden by herself is almost insufferable to me. So I was glad to have Covenant back in the picture, to some degree at least.
Another observation is that it seems to me that crises are being dragged out so incredibly long in LC. While I expected that the last book would be the climax to the story, and that much of the first three books would include necessary steps along the way, I can't help feeling that little of successful substance has occured, even though we are now 3/4 of the way through the last tale.
I had written some specifics, but then got to wondering about the concerns about spoilers, so I deleted them. I'd be happy to share if someone makes it clear that it's ok, or directs me to another thread.
Despite the things I found aggravating, I still find myself enthralled with SD's work. I am not disappointed with what he gave me to read, or how well it was prepared. I love that he causes me, someone who tends to think he has a fairly decent vocabulary and grasp of the written word, to read with a thick dictionary beside me.
It's a pity to have so long before the tale is concluded. But perhaps it is for the best.
Perhaps this time is necessary for me to re-read what has come before so that I can better understand what is to come.
I'm actually a Linden fan, now. I wasn't always, though I was never a hater. But it's the haters that turned me into a fan...the more I read/thought about what her critics said, the more they turned me the other way...to the point where I decided recently the second chron's would have been shallow without her, and the third unwritable...even unthinkable, literally [I know some wish the 3rd WERE unwritten/unthought].
I don't feel the dragging you mention...but I somewhat [from what others have said] understand the view of those who do. [of course it helps that I LIKE Linden, among other things]. But, on nothing of successful substance having happened...I just flat out disagree. It's perfectly valid to argue about the presentation/effectiveness of events. Yet, if one were to make a list, book by book, of "significant events" the list would be much longer for the 3rd than the others, and more densely packed, too...and that's even given the fact that we've all individually [and probably even as a large group] missed some that won't be/seem significant till the last book is read.
One of the things that I think makes me like much, particularly Linden-related, that others don't [this may well be taste/idiosyncratic/personal...but it is also a real "lens."] is best explained by my 'actorly' side [also poetry in a similar way]...If a character says "why, why why?" in a script, the difference between a great actor and others is the great one will make the audience hear three different questions. the power of repetition is in the differences.
When Rand in "Wheel of Time" constantly says things like "I wish matt was here, he understands women" it's boring, repetitive, always means the same damn thing, and almost irrelevant to the story. The supposed "whining" of Linden is something other than those on every possible level...and "whining," I've already shown elsewhere, is a ludicrous characterization [though that still doesn't mean it's invalid to dislike her.]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
-
I'm Murrin
- Are you?
- Posts: 15840
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:09 pm
- Location: North East, UK
- Contact:
I'll have to re-read Runes and Revenant to really make my mind up about them now, but what got me to appreciate Linden in AATE was the realisation that her attitude, and the issues she has, are all part of an expression of the main theme of the Chronicles - that of being confronted with despair. It is necessary for Linden to fall to her lowest before she can overcome it.
It helps that AATE was a much better structured book, with a clear and driven "quest"-type plot.
It helps that AATE was a much better structured book, with a clear and driven "quest"-type plot.
-
SleeplessOne
- <i>Haruchai</i>
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:43 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
How bad is it?
this isn't particularly relevant to any of the discussion that has taken place in this thread; but as Vraith and bworl and a few others have touched upon the differences of having Linden and Covenant as the respective POV characters, I thought I would raise something that has disappointed me as the chronicles have progressed (and this goes back to the 2nd chrons too).
In the 1st chrons we had a handful of great moments where TC would make references to 'the real world'.
In his bitter and cynical way he would often portray 'the real world' in very grim terms.
At one stage Mhoram is moved to declare that 'your world is a hell'.
Some of TC's 'real world' references, off the top of my head :
* his 'culture shock' story
* his story regarding the 'dancing leper' lady whom he had met in the leprosarium (told to the company above the rock gardens of the Maerl)
* his 'scenery' comments (that beauty is 'something extra' in our world)
* various words that baffle the Lords and the people of the Land, e.g. 'sophistry'.
these moments always interested me greatly, they were used sparingly but with great effect - TC was as alien to the people of the Land as they were to him.
We got very little of this kind of thing in the 2nd chrons, and none in the LC apart from Linden occasionally referring to her healing abilities in her world.
When TC mentions 'the real world' in the first chrons, it always had the effect on me of further grounding the story in reality.
In the 1st chrons we had a handful of great moments where TC would make references to 'the real world'.
In his bitter and cynical way he would often portray 'the real world' in very grim terms.
At one stage Mhoram is moved to declare that 'your world is a hell'.
Some of TC's 'real world' references, off the top of my head :
* his 'culture shock' story
* his story regarding the 'dancing leper' lady whom he had met in the leprosarium (told to the company above the rock gardens of the Maerl)
* his 'scenery' comments (that beauty is 'something extra' in our world)
* various words that baffle the Lords and the people of the Land, e.g. 'sophistry'.
these moments always interested me greatly, they were used sparingly but with great effect - TC was as alien to the people of the Land as they were to him.
We got very little of this kind of thing in the 2nd chrons, and none in the LC apart from Linden occasionally referring to her healing abilities in her world.
When TC mentions 'the real world' in the first chrons, it always had the effect on me of further grounding the story in reality.
-
peter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 11570
- Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
- Location: Another time. Another place.
- Been thanked: 6 times
I think thats a very good post sleepless one - sorry it's taken me 9 months to get to saying so (if I don't log in to the Watch I don't get reminders that a post has beem made and tend to loose track of the various threads I'm following). Still - better late than never!
I too think that TC'c charachter was by far the best in the first chrons. I appreciate the need for it to have 'changed in the second chrons, because the nature of his belief/disbelief in the Land had changed as well - but I didn't much like it. Though not a THOOLAH member I never took to Linden in the same way as I did to TC, and her type of 'self loathing' persona was for me not an attractive one. I think the strength of the story of the 2nd chrons was able to make up for these (in my eyes) deficiencies - but in the 3rd we seem to have lost this as well. There are clearly many who can take the deeply introspective shift seen in the 3rd chrons (made in my view to the great expense of the story telling element) with equinamity - indeed there are those who see it as a natural shift that is bringing greater depth and meaning to the story as a whole. Would that I were one of them. In the final series to date TC's charachter has been a shadow of it's former self (hardly supprising I suppose as he's dead) and without the power of a cracking story to shore this up reading the series is for me becoming a chore.
Having said this I do believe there were elements of promise in the last series that could have been built upon. Staves charachter and the confrontation with the Haruchai should in my mind have featured far more in the narrative. The giants (as has been mentioned before) have been one-dimensional in charachter; shame on SRD for this - to develop such an incomporable people in the earlier books and then not use them to thier full is inexcusable! The weaving of the past elements of the Lands history and how it has made the present to be as it is, is inspired and could have been used to much greater effect. All in all for me the 3rd chrons are an opportunity wasted. What did it say in the first chrons in relation to hurting people ............ something about giving them something back broken!
I too think that TC'c charachter was by far the best in the first chrons. I appreciate the need for it to have 'changed in the second chrons, because the nature of his belief/disbelief in the Land had changed as well - but I didn't much like it. Though not a THOOLAH member I never took to Linden in the same way as I did to TC, and her type of 'self loathing' persona was for me not an attractive one. I think the strength of the story of the 2nd chrons was able to make up for these (in my eyes) deficiencies - but in the 3rd we seem to have lost this as well. There are clearly many who can take the deeply introspective shift seen in the 3rd chrons (made in my view to the great expense of the story telling element) with equinamity - indeed there are those who see it as a natural shift that is bringing greater depth and meaning to the story as a whole. Would that I were one of them. In the final series to date TC's charachter has been a shadow of it's former self (hardly supprising I suppose as he's dead) and without the power of a cracking story to shore this up reading the series is for me becoming a chore.
Having said this I do believe there were elements of promise in the last series that could have been built upon. Staves charachter and the confrontation with the Haruchai should in my mind have featured far more in the narrative. The giants (as has been mentioned before) have been one-dimensional in charachter; shame on SRD for this - to develop such an incomporable people in the earlier books and then not use them to thier full is inexcusable! The weaving of the past elements of the Lands history and how it has made the present to be as it is, is inspired and could have been used to much greater effect. All in all for me the 3rd chrons are an opportunity wasted. What did it say in the first chrons in relation to hurting people ............ something about giving them something back broken!
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
After reading AATE I have to admit to myself that the Last Chronicles are not just slow to get going but that SRD has really lost it.
I think my biggest gripe is the I don't care about the characters and their plight. The thing I liked most in the first six books was how SRD elicited emotion in the reader. Now the dominant emotions are emptiness, boredom, and irritation. SRD could go and kill off the entire cast and my reaction would be like, "Well, that was a surprising move. I wonder what the rest of the pages are going to be filled with?" Given the emptiness of the Land and the emptiness of Jeremiah it's possible that SRD wrote the story to feel empty on purpose, but that still makes for lousy reading.
There are too many characters. Most of them have little to no personality. The Giants in particular all feel interchangeable. The loads and loads of character slow down the plot greatly since they all need to get a word in occasionally and we need status updates about what they are doing. I was hoping SRD would mow through them like an angel of death and kill off the greater part of them so that the story would get leaner. I think SRD didn't go nearly far enough. I was particularly satisfied to see Anele and Esmer die, as those two had been particularly annoying living plot devices.
The plot has lost building suspense in favor of long stretches of sitting around and talking, sitting around and doing mundane stuff, plus of course the ever-popular pastime of sitting around and angsting. These are punctuated by something unexpected happening. Teleport ambushes may be tactically sound, as their popularity in high-level D&D suggests, but they aren't all that interesting dramatically, especially when everyone does that. You could say that the Second Chronicles were about metaphorical knives while the Last Chronicles are about metaphorical guns. Knives and swords may be less powerful than guns, but the former make for more dramatic stories. That's why you don't often see widespread gun ownership in fantasy literature. The same should apply to magic, but SRD has left his magic get out of control in a way that makes the story more boring when people act rationally.
It strikes me how much recapping there was, and how little history. The Land had changed ludicrously little and we get frequently reminded about all sorts of little happenings that took place several books ago. I don't need to be told all that again. It only reminds me of how much better those earlier books were.
That's what comes to my mind right now.
I was so disappointed it took me weeks to gather the energy come back on this forum.
I think my biggest gripe is the I don't care about the characters and their plight. The thing I liked most in the first six books was how SRD elicited emotion in the reader. Now the dominant emotions are emptiness, boredom, and irritation. SRD could go and kill off the entire cast and my reaction would be like, "Well, that was a surprising move. I wonder what the rest of the pages are going to be filled with?" Given the emptiness of the Land and the emptiness of Jeremiah it's possible that SRD wrote the story to feel empty on purpose, but that still makes for lousy reading.
There are too many characters. Most of them have little to no personality. The Giants in particular all feel interchangeable. The loads and loads of character slow down the plot greatly since they all need to get a word in occasionally and we need status updates about what they are doing. I was hoping SRD would mow through them like an angel of death and kill off the greater part of them so that the story would get leaner. I think SRD didn't go nearly far enough. I was particularly satisfied to see Anele and Esmer die, as those two had been particularly annoying living plot devices.
The plot has lost building suspense in favor of long stretches of sitting around and talking, sitting around and doing mundane stuff, plus of course the ever-popular pastime of sitting around and angsting. These are punctuated by something unexpected happening. Teleport ambushes may be tactically sound, as their popularity in high-level D&D suggests, but they aren't all that interesting dramatically, especially when everyone does that. You could say that the Second Chronicles were about metaphorical knives while the Last Chronicles are about metaphorical guns. Knives and swords may be less powerful than guns, but the former make for more dramatic stories. That's why you don't often see widespread gun ownership in fantasy literature. The same should apply to magic, but SRD has left his magic get out of control in a way that makes the story more boring when people act rationally.
It strikes me how much recapping there was, and how little history. The Land had changed ludicrously little and we get frequently reminded about all sorts of little happenings that took place several books ago. I don't need to be told all that again. It only reminds me of how much better those earlier books were.
That's what comes to my mind right now.
I was so disappointed it took me weeks to gather the energy come back on this forum.
-
peter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 11570
- Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
- Location: Another time. Another place.
- Been thanked: 6 times
I'm completely with you on all points in your post Nerdanel. As a person who had no awareness that there was to be a 3rd Chrons at all (exept a vague reference to an idea for it in an interview SRD gave some twenty plus years ago) and one who discovered it by chance on the shelves of my local bookstore, I can say catagorically now - I wish I hadn't! Some people respond to this by saying 'Well just don't read anymore' but that would (for me) be like stopping visiting a dying friend because they were not what they were before. One goes out of love, respect and the mostly vain hopw that a miraculous recovery will be enacted. It rarely is. Would it be possible now with the Chrons - I have my doubts. I've always been able to take the (slightly) slower parts of the Chrons easily in my stride because they had purpouse to the main event, but three books of mainly navel-gazing would take some coming back from. I think Donaldson is as bored with the series as he has made us become - and I think he will kill'em all off at the end just to spite them.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
-
Hashi Lebwohl
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 19576
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 pm
I don't think he is bored with the series. If he were, he wouldn't have begun writing them at all. I do think that his writing has matured since The Second Chronicles and, yes, he is able to put a feeling of emptiness and ending into this last series.
A wild idea just entered my head. Mr. Donaldson will write about the destruction of the world as the culmination of the struggle against the Worm--it is over and nothing can stop it. However, Covenant spent over three millenia as the Timewarden, and thus has an intimate knowledge of the Arch and its structure...even if he has misplaced that knowledge by becoming mortal again--with white gold he will be able to hold Foul while he recreates the Arch into a new world, thus damning the old one while saving the new one (fulfilling the whole "with one word he will save or damn the Earth" feature the white gold bearer). He can trap Foul in the new world, thus giving it the flaw it needs to be perfected, and even though it contains all the beauty the old one had it will be a different world. Perhaps She will be reminded of who She was--and what love is--and will become the beauty in the new world.
Or...Covenant will completely merge with Foul, becoming the flaw, and Jeremiah will rebuild the Arch.
I guess we'll just have to see. In any event, how bad is it? This series still far surpasses other current fantasy literature out there--none of the others have the depth of this one.
A wild idea just entered my head. Mr. Donaldson will write about the destruction of the world as the culmination of the struggle against the Worm--it is over and nothing can stop it. However, Covenant spent over three millenia as the Timewarden, and thus has an intimate knowledge of the Arch and its structure...even if he has misplaced that knowledge by becoming mortal again--with white gold he will be able to hold Foul while he recreates the Arch into a new world, thus damning the old one while saving the new one (fulfilling the whole "with one word he will save or damn the Earth" feature the white gold bearer). He can trap Foul in the new world, thus giving it the flaw it needs to be perfected, and even though it contains all the beauty the old one had it will be a different world. Perhaps She will be reminded of who She was--and what love is--and will become the beauty in the new world.
Or...Covenant will completely merge with Foul, becoming the flaw, and Jeremiah will rebuild the Arch.
I guess we'll just have to see. In any event, how bad is it? This series still far surpasses other current fantasy literature out there--none of the others have the depth of this one.
The Tank is gone and now so am I.
I found the first two books disappointing, insufferable Linden, way too many new characters and names to properly track, and too linear chasing round overly elaborating the next thing to solve.
Even though AATE is still a bit like go here, then here, then here, then here, it felt a lot closer to the earlier books in style, and a lot more fun to read. I was glad to have recently remembered it was out and even more glad to realise I now only have 1 year for the finale, rather than 3 for the rest of you early adopting suckers! ha!
Even though AATE is still a bit like go here, then here, then here, then here, it felt a lot closer to the earlier books in style, and a lot more fun to read. I was glad to have recently remembered it was out and even more glad to realise I now only have 1 year for the finale, rather than 3 for the rest of you early adopting suckers! ha!
-
MsMary
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 7126
- Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:19 pm
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 6 times
I thought AATE was the most confusing of the bunch, frankly. Was not really a satisfying read for me at all. Hoping the last book will be better.
"The Cheat is GROUNDED! We had that lightswitch installed for you so you could turn the lights on and off, not so you could throw lightswitch raves!"
***************************************
- I'm always all right.
- Is all right special Time Lord code for really not all right at all?
- You're all irresponsible fools!
- The Doctor: But we're very experienced irresponsible fools.
__________________________
THOOLAH member since 2005
EZBoard Survivor
***************************************
- I'm always all right.
- Is all right special Time Lord code for really not all right at all?
- You're all irresponsible fools!
- The Doctor: But we're very experienced irresponsible fools.
__________________________
THOOLAH member since 2005
EZBoard Survivor
I went back and read selected parts of WGW for a comparison. Its interesting to see how the prose has changed. In WGW its pretty sharp. Trimmed, i would say. Even though Donaldson does some trademark linguistical acrobatics and plays with rare words, it doesnt get in the way of the reading experience.
In the Last Chronicles on the other hand, i have to struggle with the text, and struggle with the feeling of having read whats being said right now several times already. I feel like i drown in the narrative, but not much happens plotwise.
In WGW a lot of things happen, and the narration is very effectice. Superb in some instances. Read for example the episode in Andelain, before the final climax. Or the climax itself. Linden finally entering her own power, forging the staff and healing the Land, has to be my all time favourite fantasy moment. Im not ashamed to admit that im touched by it still, so many years aftyer reading it the first time. And it is not an exception. In WGW the text reaches out to me and moves me as a reader. It is pure Stephen Donaldson genius, when its at its best. So far, the Last Chrons has not brought me any of this magic.
In the Last Chronicles on the other hand, i have to struggle with the text, and struggle with the feeling of having read whats being said right now several times already. I feel like i drown in the narrative, but not much happens plotwise.
In WGW a lot of things happen, and the narration is very effectice. Superb in some instances. Read for example the episode in Andelain, before the final climax. Or the climax itself. Linden finally entering her own power, forging the staff and healing the Land, has to be my all time favourite fantasy moment. Im not ashamed to admit that im touched by it still, so many years aftyer reading it the first time. And it is not an exception. In WGW the text reaches out to me and moves me as a reader. It is pure Stephen Donaldson genius, when its at its best. So far, the Last Chrons has not brought me any of this magic.
-
Horrim Carabal
- <i>Haruchai</i>
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:13 am
- Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Weird, because to me the first half of WGW is some of the poorest writing Donaldson has done in the entire series.Atrium wrote: In WGW a lot of things happen, and the narration is very effectice. Superb in some instances. Read for example the episode in Andelain, before the final climax. Or the climax itself. Linden finally entering her own power, forging the staff and healing the Land, has to be my all time favourite fantasy moment. Im not ashamed to admit that im touched by it still, so many years aftyer reading it the first time. And it is not an exception. In WGW the text reaches out to me and moves me as a reader. It is pure Stephen Donaldson genius, when its at its best. So far, the Last Chrons has not brought me any of this magic.
To each his own, I suppose, though I do agree with the moments of Linden forging the new Staff and healing the Land being awesome. In fact the whole second half of WGW is great.
I fail to see a huge line of demarcation between the 1st/2nd Chronicles and the Last. It feels like the same story to me, and that's all I really need. Personal growth and stylistic changes in an author over 25+ years can hardly be a surprise. In fact if he wrote the same way he did back then I'd assume he was a robot. But like I said, the Land feels like the Land, and the story rings true as a continuation of the first two Chronicles. That's really enough for me to enjoy it and find it worthy of reading.
