Kevin's Watch

The author surfaced " The Majestic Castles" in FR. He kinda teased us with the hint of these ancient works of the Viles during Lindens ..." other wordly" visit with them. I asked about the teasing in SRD's gradual interview, only to be replied to in private,,that he couldn't really spoil the future by further discussing it, now could he?..which,,was his way of saying , " of course there will be more!"

Well, more certainly arrived. What do you think? I mean, as far as " expectations" that so many reviewers are grounded in,,how did Donaldson's work of the viles' Majestic Castles " do?

For me,,The Castles part was a gimmie..an easy expectation easily met , a bar not raised very high by myself, BUT,,the whole deal made of water..well now..that certainly splashed water on what I was imagining,,sorry,,Anyway, yea everything made of water was for me,,really unexpected..a presented reality that is certainly Impossible,,but he made it work. He made it work so well,,that I too,,felt entranced,, mesmerized,,dissolved etc etc by his creative wonderment. I..this is true..was so taken by it,,that I let a dark fear over come me; that He would destroy it like he did Woodhelven, which I still haven't totally forgiven him for and that was over 30 years ago. A Part of me really liked the rest of AATE..simply because he didn't flush the Viles' Majestic Castles down the Lost Deep. Perhaps that is a joke to be told in TLD.

Anyway there is the whole metaphor of the happening and all that,,but simply on its own,,as a creation by the author, I was taken. It was beautiful and fun. How about you?

lurch, yes.

That remains my favorite chapter of AATE (after one read through), strictly because of how absolutely transported and entranced those descriptive passages made me feel. Never before has a piece of writing so enthralled me as did those few pages.

What I loved about it is not only the imagery, but also the metaphoric implications. Stone is permanence at rest; water is permanence in motion. But that majestic castle was made of water! A paradox: permanence in motion and at rest simultaneously. Absolutely magical!

It was also at this point in the story, iirc, that the issue of Linden's fate being writ in water began to be mentioned again. There's something about that juxtaposition.

Linden's heart turned to granite after her battle in Melenkurion Skyweir. There was a lot of alluding to this image of her heart of stone thereafter. Yet her fate is writ in water. My head is somewhat swirling with this matter, but I strongly feel that Linden's ultimate healing will relate to this imagery of stone and water. Her encounter with the Viles in FR taught her something about loveliness and beauty--she used that knowledge to penetrate the Hazard. It may be that this same knowledge will aid her in TLD...

lurch wrote:, BUT,,the whole deal made of water..well now..that certainly splashed water on what I was imagining,,sorry,,Anyway, yea everything made of water was for me,,really unexpected..a presented reality that is certainly Impossible,,but he made it work.

As some clever chap pointed out elsewhere, water is a recurring theme in this book. The flood. The Vile's lair. The Tsunami. The washing in the river. And so on.

The clever chap felt it was one of the many ways SD referenced the surrealist movement. Probably right

native wrote:

lurch wrote:, BUT,,the whole deal made of water..well now..that certainly splashed water on what I was imagining,,sorry,,Anyway, yea everything made of water was for me,,really unexpected..a presented reality that is certainly Impossible,,but he made it work.

As some clever chap pointed out elsewhere, water is a recurring theme in this book. The flood. The Vile's lair. The Tsunami. The washing in the river. And so on.

The clever chap felt it was one of the many ways SD referenced the surrealist movement. Probably right

Yes, I recall a post or two on Man Being Soluble..and that gets into the whole metaphoricalness of Surrealism,,establishing connections without using logic and reason. As stated,,the author certainly connected with myself , when he went on about the Majestic Castles, And yes..I will admit,,no, thats the wrong word, it implies a guilt and I have none about the " connection made",,anyway,,I certainly was open minded to anything as he took us thru the " door" and into the light..I was expecting more of the travertine, marble, granite quartz or diamond crystal et al and was thus thoroughly delighted awe struck, fascinated that he went with water. Did Not see it coming...and for selfish concerns,,was sorry an exit had to be made in such a hurry. I certainly hope that there will be more of the Viles ancient work...maybe something Jerry can emulate?

The water ballroom was enchanting, hat off to Donaldson for it. The presence of Foul's throne there was intriguing. And the Hazard was very well done. The castle at the start on the other hand was meh. It made me wonder how bodiless spirits would even come up with the concept of castles.

On the whole I felt a bit rushed out of there. We run to Jeremiah and then from SHE and never stopped to look, be awed and grasp a glimmer of these wonders except for the Ballroom. The only way in was destroyed and now it is truly lost.

We also never had Foul's Throne adequetely explained. Or at least Linden rejected (for chronologically sound reasons) the explanation offered by the croyel.

Seemed pretty obvious to me. When Foul infiltrated the Viles, he probably convinced them that his throne was as perfect, in its own way, as their structures. So they built a replica in their castle for him.

Foul, that rat bastard, probably appreciated the irony of his ugly throne despoiling its beautiful setting.

I had a worry that this foul throne helps preserve Foul's life. In the first chronicles we were told that as long s Foul's Creche stands Lord Foul will never be truly vanquished. But when Covenant destroyed it Foul managed to survive somehow, not once but twice.

Now we know that his throne had a replica hidden in Mount Thunder where he resided during the Second Chronicles. Could this throne be the reason?

After the rescue mission to the Lost Deep the throne is totally inaccessible. No one can hurt Lord Foul foul life insurance.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:The water ballroom was enchanting, hat off to Donaldson for it. The presence of Foul's throne there was intriguing. And the Hazard was very well done. The castle at the start on the other hand was meh. It made me wonder how bodiless spirits would even come up with the concept of castles.

On the whole I felt a bit rushed out of there. We run to Jeremiah and then from SHE and never stopped to look, be awed and grasp a glimmer of these wonders except for the Ballroom. The only way in was destroyed and now it is truly lost.

Yes, why would they build a castle anyway? My thought exactly. As for being lost - everything is being lost. This story progresses as everything in it regresses. The Land is dying, and so is the Earth. I have a feeling that at the end of AATE the rest of the Earth is already gone, every country or realm visited during TOT and then some, the only thing left for the Worm to consume is the Land itself.

Foul, that rat bastard, probably appreciated the irony of his ugly throne despoiling its beautiful setting.

Ahh. theres the key. Without Ugly, how would we know Beauty? Put them together..and we have Magnificence.


Worm..have you forgotten that Linden has a hole in her chest and is probably the intense focus of what little is left of the medical staff at the hospital? But wait!! Jerry has been shot as well!! Inevitable..seems the dealing with. Yet..Hope..lets see what the author has to say about
Hope.

lurch wrote: Worm..have you forgotten that Linden has a hole in her chest and is probably the intense focus of what little is left of the medical staff at the hospital? But wait!! Jerry has been shot as well!! Inevitable..seems the dealing with. Yet..Hope..lets see what the author has to say about
Hope.

Wasn't Joan the summoner? As she's dead, Linden would have gone back if she were still alive surely?

native wrote:

lurch wrote: Worm..have you forgotten that Linden has a hole in her chest and is probably the intense focus of what little is left of the medical staff at the hospital? But wait!! Jerry has been shot as well!! Inevitable..seems the dealing with. Yet..Hope..lets see what the author has to say about
Hope.

Wasn't Joan the summoner? As she's dead, Linden would have gone back if she were still alive surely?

Not if Linden is dead in the "real world."

dlbpharmd wrote:Not if Linden is dead in the "real world."

Yes that's the point I'm making.

lurch wrote:Foul, that rat bastard, probably appreciated the irony of his ugly throne despoiling its beautiful setting.

Ahh. theres the key. Without Ugly, how would we know Beauty? Put them together..and we have Magnificence.

I can surely see that as being part of it.
And possibly supplemental: could it be that the Viles, in the midst of succumbing/falling, were aware of the corruption coming upon them and so including/abiding [whether by making themselves, or simply letting it come to be/be made] its presence? I think they were capable of such self-awareness...even if only as a sort of sub-conscious recognition of appropriateness. [recall their mix of judgement/reflection/confusion in the Linden/Roger/Vile/Forestal scene, until Roger's actions forced the issue out of the realm of contemplation].

And it just occurred to me that this makes an interesting contrast with the Elohim, who refuse to recognize any complicity in their own dire straits.

Vraith wrote:

lurch wrote:Foul, that rat bastard, probably appreciated the irony of his ugly throne despoiling its beautiful setting.

Ahh. theres the key. Without Ugly, how would we know Beauty? Put them together..and we have Magnificence.

I can surely see that as being part of it.
And possibly supplemental: could it be that the Viles, in the midst of succumbing/falling, were aware of the corruption coming upon them and so including/abiding [whether by making themselves, or simply letting it come to be/be made] its presence? I think they were capable of such self-awareness...even if only as a sort of sub-conscious recognition of appropriateness. [recall their mix of judgement/reflection/confusion in the Linden/Roger/Vile/Forestal scene, until Roger's actions forced the issue out of the realm of contemplation].

And it just occurred to me that this makes an interesting contrast with the Elohim, who refuse to recognize any complicity in their own dire straits.

It would certainly push on the parameters of " Time" and Space as well. With the " appropriateness" is a suggestion of knowing when and where. Another way for me to say it is...the original Surrealists had it that, what we find in our Imagination, has always been there, just waiting to be discovered.,,Majestic Castles.

This appropriateness connects to the " origin" idea we've been bouncing around, in that it goes beyond the Good vs Evil perspective. The author surfaces the idea again,,when Jerry goes on about thanking the sacrifices Liand , Anele, etc made in order for Jerry to be free of the Croyel and the graveyard. This is where " plot" becomes subjugated by theme.or the message IS the metaphor.. ..The idea of " appropriateness",,Magnificence,,over whelms the plot fact that the author just wiped out two main characters, at least one supporting character and a whole bunch of cavewrights and nasties being driven by Roger the BS artist..all so Jerry would be liberated,,and we don't know for sure if the Elohim are captured or not...The author sacrificed Main Characters ,,around since Runes, Book 1 of the Last Chrons...for the liberation of a totally new character.. Jerry...!!!..and we aren't even sure what the heck hes going to do or the consequences of what He Does Do!!..talk about Trust and Hope..Perhaps the Viles knew something about Trust and Hope of the appropriateness, the Magnificence,,that was free of Time and Space.?..and what they knew/ know..makes the Elohim feckless and therefore, unnecessary. ..? There are choices in the Land,,that have been long forgotten to have ever been.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I had a worry that this foul throne helps preserve Foul's life. In the first chronicles we were told that as long s Foul's Creche stands Lord Foul will never be truly vanquished. But when Covenant destroyed it Foul managed to survive somehow, not once but twice.

Now we know that his throne had a replica hidden in Mount Thunder where he resided during the Second Chronicles. Could this throne be the reason?

After the rescue mission to the Lost Deep the throne is totally inaccessible. No one can hurt Lord Foul foul life insurance.

The Croyel/Jeremiah got into the Lost Deep in the first place without (presumably) opening the Hazardgate. If he can get there directly once (using a Jeremiah construct perhaps?), then he may still be able to get back there again, despite the fact that the Hazard Bridge has gone? (And why not also others who can transport, such as the Elohim?)

Interesting observation about Jerry ,,being there before. Linden was quite sure of it.

I am still amazed,,on how the author has Linden opening up the HazardGate..searching for that one little thread that all else was connected to. ..that one little thread all of the Gate..all of the block to the Majestic Castles,,was centered on,,or dependent on..or came from. With out it, the way to the Majestic Castles was unimpeded. Perhaps a beautiful metaphor for what impedes Us in gaining access to our Imagination and the ease/ difficulty of removing it..?

Another thought: How corrupted,,misaligned,,self defeating is the mind, that after figuring out the way to and experiencing the fantastic glory of the Viles expression,,would succumb to the ..why isn't the whole world this way, despair of SWMNBN?

lurch wrote:

There are choices in the Land,,that have been long forgotten to have ever been.

All vastness has been forgotten.

This statement, uttered by Anele and the Forestals in that meeting witnessed by Covenant, is usually uttered in conjunction with the need for that necessary forbidding of evils. And Linden used her memory of her encounter with the Viles, and her intuition about who/what they were at the time that they must have made the Hazard, to guide her to penetrate it. It wasn't about despair or destruction, but the thread that loosed the gate was about loveliness. As you keep saying lurch: magnificent.

More of this magnificence will need to be recalled/remembered for wood and stone, orcrest and refusal to work as the necessary forbidding of evils. Part of me is thinking that water is also involved in this memory and need for refusal...

native wrote: Wasn't Joan the summoner? As she's dead, Linden would have gone back if she were still alive surely?

If I was reading AATE right, Covenant's part of the story at the end was taking place at the same time as the end of Linden's story, so we don't know if Linden is still in the Land.

I can't imagine that Linden won't be in TLD (sorry THOOLAH!), but I agree that she is dead (as is Jeremiah) in the "real" world. With Jeremiah's seemingly limitless powers, it wouldn't surprise me if Linden, Covenant, and Jeremiah somehow end up back "here" when it's all said and done.

I'm probably in the minority when I say this, but I'm not a big Jeremiah fan (THOOJAH?). I'm not really in love with the fact that he's got this power that seems to know no bounds...seems like too easy an "out" whenever SRD decides to make use of it. Why doesn't he just build a prison for Foul? Who knows? Maybe that's Chapter 1 of TLD...

He did drive Linden's actions, and as a father, I can understand her actions to some point, but she was a bit obsessive about it to the exclusion of other courses of action. I just didn't have enough emotional attachment to Jeremiah (as compared to my 6-book attachment to the Land at that point), so Linden's actions, especially given that she's this analytical machine when it comes to healing, seem to be a little strange, for lack of a better word.

But I guess Jessica Rabbit said it best, "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."

Sorry, just realized that I hijacked this thread...

ur-Timewarden wrote:

native wrote: Wasn't Joan the summoner? As she's dead, Linden would have gone back if she were still alive surely?

If I was reading AATE right, Covenant's part of the story at the end was taking place at the same time as the end of Linden's story, so we don't know if Linden is still in the Land.

I can't imagine that Linden won't be in TLD (sorry THOOLAH!), but I agree that she is dead (as is Jeremiah) in the "real" world. With Jeremiah's seemingly limitless powers, it wouldn't surprise me if Linden, Covenant, and Jeremiah somehow end up back "here" when it's all said and done.

I'm probably in the minority when I say this, but I'm not a big Jeremiah fan (THOOJAH?). I'm not really in love with the fact that he's got this power that seems to know no bounds...seems like too easy an "out" whenever SRD decides to make use of it. Why doesn't he just build a prison for Foul? Who knows? Maybe that's Chapter 1 of TLD...

He did drive Linden's actions, and as a father, I can understand her actions to some point, but she was a bit obsessive about it to the exclusion of other courses of action. I just didn't have enough emotional attachment to Jeremiah (as compared to my 6-book attachment to the Land at that point), so Linden's actions, especially given that she's this analytical machine when it comes to healing, seem to be a little strange, for lack of a better word.

But I guess Jessica Rabbit said it best, "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."

Sorry, just realized that I hijacked this thread...

Linden is going to ride the Worm to Foul's lair where she will Command the Worm to devour (shred) him. After this, the Worm will gain sentience including all of Foul's knowledge. Since the Worm now knows where the Creator is located, Linden will Command the Worm to find the Creator so she can ask him "WTF gives anyway, homey??"