Kevin's Watch

Given some of the thoughts/dissatisfactions posted here about the 'disposition' of certain characters in this latest book, can we consider these events that should be undone? That is, would a do-over, made possible by the mechanism of time-travel, be in our future?

Let's face it, the Worm is awake, what do we have to lose? Will the entire purpose of the last book be to mitigate the Worm's awakening in the present? Put it back to sleep? Deal with it and accept the destruction of the Land and, as has been speculated, the creation of another Earth? With the 'handling' of Joan, aren't the Ceasures going to stop? At least from her. But Linden can create them, right?

Who else is up for more time travel?

I certainly believe the Subjectivity of Time isn't done being explored by the author. Hes done everything with it but...go into the future. Again,,as brought up in another thread..I am not sure When TC and the Haruchai got deposited upon leaving Joan's caesure. We know where, but When ,seems the author just allows Us to make assumptions about, and after the TC and Jerry act of FR..well..I ain't trusting any assumptions. The metaphor of the tsunami,,mite be, " sea change"..a transformational change..a different perspective all together..perhaps orientated to the " future"...? Creating a future seems what Linden never really did and thats what got her answering the door when despair came knocking..imho.

I understood that the caesures weren't capable of going any further forward in time than the point at which they're created (the "now" of the LC, i.e. each time Joan - or Linden - creates one). The rest of the future is discernible, to a point, but still fluid, like the Insequent and ur-viles have said. So I don't think visiting the future in any corporeal sense is possible with the time-travel rules of the chronicles.

Could be wrong though!

During my original post in this thread, my thinking was time travel to the past to undue recent events, not time travel forward. After some thought, I think the answer is likely NO. The reason being that SRD seems intent on things coming to a conclusion in the present. So I'm thinking that all further action is going to be directed within the present at halting the Worm.

Since both past and future are contained in the present, I don't see us time traveling in TLD. But I agree with lurch that the subjectivity or fluidity of time is not yet done being explored by the author.

When TC used the krill and Joan's wild gold to anchor him to his present, I think he did just that. Which means that his exit point from the caesure is his proper present without any time slips.

Without Joan and her caesures, time travel should also be much more difficult. They'd need help from yet another insequent.

lurch wrote:I certainly believe the Subjectivity of Time isn't done being explored by the author. Hes done everything with it but...go into the future. Again,,as brought up in another thread..I am not sure When TC and the Haruchai got deposited upon leaving Joan's caesure. We know where, but When ,seems the author just allows Us to make assumptions about, and after the TC and Jerry act of FR..well..I ain't trusting any assumptions. The metaphor of the tsunami,,mite be, " sea change"..a transformational change..a different perspective all together..perhaps orientated to the " future"...? Creating a future seems what Linden never really did and thats what got her answering the door when despair came knocking..imho.

Linden's fate is written in water. If it were written in stone, then all possibilities would be limited to one. Future-travel wouldn't be necessary even if it could happen. But now the possibilities are limitless, and nobody knows. I believe your "sea-change" concept, but it might be better specified. The renewal of baptism, perhaps.

The Somberlain wrote:I understood that the caesures weren't capable of going any further forward in time than the point at which they're created (the "now" of the LC, i.e. each time Joan - or Linden - creates one). The rest of the future is discernible, to a point, but still fluid, like the Insequent and ur-viles have said. So I don't think visiting the future in any corporeal sense is possible with the time-travel rules of the chronicles.

Could be wrong though!

A caesure exists in all times simultaneously, but the future is never seen or visited, only felt, inscribed in the flesh of its victims as the end of all things.

I was reading the end of AATE again this morning and I think now I have to disagree with myself and the post by earthbrah.

I think we say more time travel at the end of AATE. Proof?

1) Is it unequivocally stated that TC anchored himself to the present? Was it Joan's present. Joan could have been summoned to the past, couldn't she or the Raver could have take her to the past once summoned.
2) TC anchored himself to Joan through the caesure (or despite it).
3) AATE makes mention of the Humbled not being in their proper time.
4) During one of TC's Timewarden flashbacks, he comes to understand that the ultimate doom of the Land lies in the danger to TIME and that through TIME itself there is a way to oppose what is happening.

I don't have the book in front of me while writing this, but I don't think TC and Linden are in the same time.

If I am correct (prediction!), a good portion of the TLD will be spent with TC trying to heal time from the past and Linden and Jeremiah dealing with the Worm in the present. There was a reason Joan was where she was (and possibly when). Hell, they may not even meet up again until the very end of the book!

Of course, I could be very, very wrong.

Interesting ideas.
I think the Earth is toast, myself.

Wither Linden and Thomas are in the same time now, or even the same time zone, has not been debatable to me. 1. There is no indication that Covenant was transported into the past, and in ROTE that was only possible with the aid of ur-vile lore. Recall that Linden created the caesure but the ur-viles made the time travel happen. 2. There is no possibility that Covenant went into the future since the future hasn't happened yet.

More interesting to me is the fact that Covenant altered events in the past by visiting Foul in his Creche, and then the Forestals.

SkurjMaster wrote:I was reading the end of AATE again this morning and I think now I have to disagree with myself and the post by earthbrah.

I think we say more time travel at the end of AATE. Proof?

1) Is it unequivocally stated that TC anchored himself to the present? Was it Joan's present. Joan could have been summoned to the past, couldn't she or the Raver could have take her to the past once summoned.
2) TC anchored himself to Joan through the caesure (or despite it).
3) AATE makes mention of the Humbled not being in their proper time.
4) During one of TC's Timewarden flashbacks, he comes to understand that the ultimate doom of the Land lies in the danger to TIME and that through TIME itself there is a way to oppose what is happening.

I don't have the book in front of me while writing this, but I don't think TC and Linden are in the same time.

If I am correct (prediction!), a good portion of the TLD will be spent with TC trying to heal time from the past and Linden and Jeremiah dealing with the Worm in the present. There was a reason Joan was where she was (and possibly when). Hell, they may not even meet up again until the very end of the book!

Of course, I could be very, very wrong.

I think you are wrong...one specific reason is the tsunami sequence seems to be perfectly in sync.
Nevertheless...interesting points/ideas...most especially #4.

Vraith wrote:
Nevertheless...interesting points/ideas...most especially #4.

I wouldn't mind if someone gave me a clue as to which part of the text point 4 refers to.

I don't have the text in front of me either right now, but point 4 comes from that scene from TC's past when he was in Andelain with the Dead seeking to contrive some form of salvation for the Land.
The counsel about Time being the key to the destruction of the Earth, and therefore the way to oppose it also being through Time was made by the Theomach. Berek agreed. And I suppose I agree with both those dudes...but just how Time can be used to oppose the danger to itself, I cannot now see...

earthbrah wrote:I don't have the text in front of me either right now, but point 4 comes from that scene from TC's past when he was in Andelain with the Dead seeking to contrive some form of salvation for the Land.
The counsel about Time being the key to the destruction of the Earth, and therefore the way to oppose it also being through Time was made by the Theomach. Berek agreed. And I suppose I agree with both those dudes...but just how Time can be used to oppose the danger to itself, I cannot now see...

Only if it is possible to change history without breaking the Arch, as I see it.

Covenant still is white gold, and white gold is the keystone of the Arch, so I expect some sort of a reunification will take place and TC will just heal the Arch, himself, the Universe and everything (and thanks for the fish).

earthbrah wrote:...but just how Time can be used to oppose the danger to itself, I cannot now see...

I thought that was simply a way to explain TC's impulsive action of jumping into a caesure at the end. Time was the answer. Freezing it (by jumping into the caesure) allowed him to defeat Joan/turiya. Obviously, this couldn't have been his plan all along, because TC states several times while on the way to Joan that he has no idea what he's going to do. It wasn't until that "eureka" moment that he got the idea of how to defeat her. (Pretty darn lucky and random, if you ask me.) So I'm fairly confident that this memory of Theomach telling him time was the solution referred to his sudden idea to defeat Joan. Donaldson was building up the justification for that WTF moment. And it makes sense that Covenant would have been planning for this moment, while still in the Arch of Time, because he would have known all along that he'd have to confront Joan, and would need a way to do it. I think this moment is what they were all discussing.

Of course, it could mean more later, too. After all, it's pretty obvious that Lord Foul's main gambit this time around is to attack Time. So it certainly wouldn't be surprising if time is somehow involved in the solution.