Kevin's Watch

What made the Ardent the greatest Insequent ever?

I think it was because he faced the Bane and survived. No Insequent had ever done that, the fate of that woman Insequent whose name I forget (let's call her She Whose Name Cannot Be Recalled ) made them terrified of Her. Also, it's possible they considered that he fulfilled his particular quest for perfection more completely than anyone before him. He witnessed some once-in-a-world's-lifetime events.

mcnpauls wrote:What made the Ardent the greatest Insequent ever?

The same thing that made Liand "the first stonedowner in millennia," ... instead of showing us these characters are great, Donaldson now tells us they're great, and expects us just to go along with him.

In other words ... good question! No one had to wonder what made Mhoram the greatest of the new Lords.

My vote would have gone to the Theomach.

mcnpauls wrote:What made the Ardent the greatest Insequent ever?

Z, you're brutal.

I think because he, unlike all his fellow Insequent, became the sum total of all the other Insequent.
Or rather they were all united through the Ardent, either in the sharing of power or through granted authority for a greater purpose.

I'm not sure of the sharing of power though, but it seemed to me that the Harrow knew that the Ardent could stop him. But in a strange way I also got the impression that the Ardent was normally not nearly as powerful as he was when he appeared before the Harrow for the first time.
Like he was just a student and not fully "learned" if you will.

Also because he, unlike every other Insequent, changed from his "purpose" for the greater good.
It seemed like what he was doing was in fact totally opposite from his ....whatever he did, sloth?
The Mahdoubt challenged the Harrow but only because she was compelled by her name.
It seems to me that the Insequent value the Ardent's self-sacrifice more than anything else.
Even the Theomach just remained true to his self.

I thought it was that because of his presence/participation/deeds a number of things happened, but the most stunning/earthshaking result was that: the entire possibility/predictability/destiny of the world was wiped clean and altered.

Vraith wrote:I thought it was that because of his presence/participation/deeds a number of things happened, but the most stunning/earthshaking result was that: the entire possibility/predictability/destiny of the world was wiped clean and altered.

...that's what the text says....

Like Zarathustra, my feeling was SRD just expeected us to accept the statement, and I still can't quite see what made him SO great.

Spoonchicken, can you remember at what point it says what you recall?

High Lord Tolkien wrote: Z, you're brutal.

Brutally honest. I feel the same way about some of my own characters and it drives me crazy that I don't have room or time to make them better. I've been revising the damn thing for so long, I can't afford the time to make every secondary character equally actualized and cool. Maybe that's what happened to Donaldson, too. Not enough time. I definitely don't think it's a problem of imagination or skill.

If this was any other writer, I'd say the Ardent was a fine characrter. But knowing how much better Donaldson can do, I was disappointed. And not only disappointed in the Ardent, but every character except Esmer, Stave, Linden, and Covenant. And Covenant only counts for this book. If you look at the last two books, the situation is even worse. But this is the book where it becomes apparent and undeniable that many of these characters never had a greater role, despite the hints. Anele, for instance, was supposed to be the hope of the earth. And look what he did. Linden drug his emaciated ass around for two books to do that? He had so much more potential.

Vraith wrote: I thought it was that because of his presence/participation/deeds a number of things happened, but the most stunning/earthshaking result was that: the entire possibility/predictability/destiny of the world was wiped clean and altered.

In that case, the giants who went along for the ride were also "the greatest giants who ever lived." No. Merely being nearby when important events happen can't be the sole reason that makes someone a great person. The Ardent wasn't responsible for any of that happening. It was Linden (and possibly the ur-viles/waynhim) who made the future uncertain.

Zarathustra wrote:

Vraith wrote: I thought it was that because of his presence/participation/deeds a number of things happened, but the most stunning/earthshaking result was that: the entire possibility/predictability/destiny of the world was wiped clean and altered.

In that case, the giants who went along for the ride were also "the greatest giants who ever lived." No. Merely being nearby when important events happen can't be the sole reason that makes someone a great person. The Ardent wasn't responsible for any of that happening. It was Linden (and possibly the ur-viles/waynhim) who made the future uncertain.

But he was essential to them happening...there's a good chance they would have failed without him. And he fulfilled his nature as seeker after the utterly unique [what else is the wiping out of every foreseen future?], and in all that he utterly superseded the Elohim, which all their race seem to desire. But, mostly I just think it's consistent and relevant to what he and his people are like, to judge the situation in that way. [although to be honest, he's not my favorite character].
Anele...I found shocking at first...but satisfying after a bit, similar to how I felt about the whole Brinn thing way back when.

mcnpauls wrote:What made the Ardent the greatest Insequent ever?

I'm not sure that is the intent of any characters or narrator's thoughts on the Ardent. Subscribing to the idea that the Insequent are seekers of Perfection,,allows for the Observation that the Ardent was not perfect in more than one dimension, yet as pointed out above, he executed in unexpected ways that were beyond him, that had consequences leading to a whole new ball game. He saved Linden over the pit of SWMNBN. It was his Imperfection, rather than the seeking of Perfection, that led to his " greatness". He overcame his fears at the bridge,and acted to save Linden.Kinda neat metaphor that he did it by extending himself, his " ribbans" The cost of his foiled mission was already known to him. He demonstrated the repeated motif of being More than even what he believed of himself, and thus the predictability of all that was to follow, evaporated.Perhaps a greatness the status quo Elohim and the stoic Haruchai could learn from.

He was a seeker of new and unique experiences - and he was the first and only Insequent to have been the recipticle of the combined theurgy of the whole race of Insequent - it seems to work on two levels. From a collective level (combination of theurgies) and from an individual level (a seeker of the unique achieving the utterly unique - though comparing levels of uniqueness seems somewhat fallacious to me....!)

Though ultimately, as someone else has pointed out, he merely declares himself the greatest - I'm not sure we have to take his word for it and ultimately it depends on your reference point. Up until now, the greatest of the Insequent has always been judged by reference to their bettering the Elohim, the Ardent's reference point appears to be different. Neither is right and neither wrong, surely.

What makes the Ardent the greatest depends on the final outcome for the world.

He will be acknowledged as the greatest because of all the deeds he preformed during AATE.

1. Accepts the geas that is place upon him.
2. The Harrow would have surely done his part exactly as he saw fit. The party may have died when they arrived in the lost deep. The Ardent , being the refree kept the Harrow from discarding the dead weight and maintained the bargain. Although he failed to preserve the Harrow, he paid for it by losing his life and mind. But he kept going.
3. Showed "non-Insequent" quality. Instead of pursuing his desires and knowledge speciality, he became a protector and "angel of mercy" to the group. (The Haruchi encounter with the Vizard may have show a pattern of Insequent behavior-- Arrogance) His actions help preserved the group a number of times.

These actions together, may be a linchpin where the group save the world and he would be credited with preserving the group in their time of need. Thus he become a part of the quest and saves the planet as a Insequent. A feat greater than what the Theomach did.