Kevin's Watch

I have just read a wonderful book called The Pagan Christ, by Tom Harpur.

It juxtaposes the stories of Jesus with earlier Egyptian, Sumerian, and Persian stories. It also compares the life of Jesus with the Life of Buhda and other profits and saviors.

It is quite well written, and very eye opening, especially when you see how similar Jesus's life story compares to others, whom the Christian world has deemed *Pagan*.

The most interesting part of the book however, is that the author is not trying to dis-prove Christianity in any way what-so-ever.
He is *not* trying to say that Christians are incorrect in their beliefs. Far from it.

In fact, the author is a former Anglican minister and professor of Religious studies.
He states, over and over again, throughout the book that his faith in God, or even in Jesus has not diminished at all.

Though he goes on to try and prove in historical inaccuracies of the Gospels; and goes into great detail, to show that the life story of Jesus is something that has been recorded for a good two thousand years before Jesus' time, his goal is to show that it is the story, rather than the man, that is important. He even explains where the name specific name *Jesus* was derived.

He states, that he does not believe that the Man Jesus Christ ever walked the Earth, but he says that going to Christmas Mass and Easter Mass hold even deeper meaning for him because of it.

The author believes that the story of Jesus should never have been taken as actual history; just as most people don't look at the story of Adam an Eve as actual history.

He believes that the story should have a deeper meaning for everyone, and it pertains to the Christ, or messiah, or savior that is within all of us. That everyone, or everyone's soul, is born into poverty. That everyone's soul has a chance to be opened up, and eventually reborn.

I believe that his main point was to say, that instead of worshiping Jesus (or any other earthbound Deity throughout history) for the simple reason that he (they) deserves our worship, he says that we should all try to live our lives by the teachings, and strive to awaken the inner Christ/messiah in all of us.

As I stated, this book is not ant-religion. It is not Anti-Christian. It simply tries to say that Christians should not dwell on the Life and Times of Jesus, which are fairly historically inaccurate, and instead try to realize what the deeper meaning of the Gospels are, and what they mean for us individually.

I still attend Church nearly every week after reading this book, I still wear a Cross around my neck. I am trying to convince my father and mother (an Anglican minister and his assistant) to read this book for inspiration to further justify their calling.

I would encourage anyone, Christian, non-Christian, and even Atheist to read this book, for the same reason.

Interesting stuff, drew. I can see where stepping away from Jesus-as-a-real-person could help someone more fully embrace the New Testament stories.

drew wrote:
I believe that his main point was to say, that instead of worshiping Jesus (or any other earthbound Deity throughout history) for the simple reason that he (they) deserves our worship, he says that we should all try to live our lives by the teachings, and strive to awaken the inner Christ/messiah in all of us.

The messages of Jesus: peace, love, humility, forgiveness.. is much more powerful if he's just a man in my opinion.
That is powerful.
That is what I listen to and strive for.
As soon as people start focusing on Jesus himself and talking about miracles....what a waste.

This sort of thing appeals to a certain kind of reader.

If you actually believe what Christianity teaches - Jesus existed, he was the son of God - then it's not for you.

If you think the story of Jesus is a nice myth, and the ideas behind the myth are more important, I can see how something like this would be a good read.

But I'm in the first group.

Horrim Carabal wrote:This sort of thing appeals to a certain kind of reader.

If you actually believe what Christianity teaches - Jesus existed, he was the son of God - then it's not for you.

If you think the story of Jesus is a nice myth, and the ideas behind the myth are more important, I can see how something like this would be a good read.

But I'm in the first group.

It goes much deeper than accusing Jesus of being a myth. Thats not the point that author is trying to raise.
I can't explain it as eloquently as he did, but his message, or hypothesis if you will, was that we are ALL the sons/daughters of God. The teachings of Jesus (Or Yeshua, as his name would have been during that time) are to awaken the Christ that is within us all.
Many people, in order to do this *must* have faith in Jesus being the Son of God. Others, may find it easier to understand the teachings as being as allegorical as many of the teachings in the First Testament.

Once though, I read about the stories that Pre date Jesus' time by thousands of years, but have a messiah that came from a virgin birth, who was tempted in the dessert, who eventually was crucified, and most importantly, who taught the same teachings....well...it made me think that if these teaching have been about since the infancy of civilization, then there are very important indeed.

drew wrote: his message, or hypothesis if you will, was that we are ALL the sons/daughters of God. The teachings of Jesus (Or Yeshua, as his name would have been during that time) are to awaken the Christ that is within us all.

I'll have to get this book.
That's always been my thoughts as well.
Many are taught to call God: "Father".
"Our Father who art in Heaven..."
If God is "our Father" then we are all brothers and sisters and should treat each other as such.

Another beautiful powerful message weakened or lost focusing on the Father/Son - God/Jesus dynamic.
(Throw the Holy Ghost in there too and make it more insane.)

Yes, I think I'm going to have to give it a read as well.

Horrim Carabal, why would someone who believed Jesus was the Son of God not want to read thos book? Simply because the author seems to disagree? Couldn't someone who believed in Jesus as the Son of God get inspiration from a different perspective, without denying their own?

I'm not a Christian myself, so I can't answer these questions. They're not an attack, I'm just curious. I personally draw inspiration from many many belief systems that I don't share.

High Lord Tolkien wrote: The messages of Jesus: peace, love, humility, forgiveness.. is much more powerful if he's just a man in my opinion.
That is powerful.
That is what I listen to and strive for.
As soon as people start focusing on Jesus himself and talking about miracles....what a waste.

You get my post of the day award.

Cambo wrote:Yes, I think I'm going to have to give it a read as well.

Horrim Carabal, why would someone who believed Jesus was the Son of God not want to read thos book? Simply because the author seems to disagree? Couldn't someone who believed in Jesus as the Son of God get inspiration from a different perspective, without denying their own?

I'm not a Christian myself, so I can't answer these questions. They're not an attack, I'm just curious. I personally draw inspiration from many many belief systems that I don't share.

I've read plenty of atheist literature (just recently, Chris Hitchens' book).

But I think the main audience for this book isn't Christians, it's people like yourself. Nothing wrong with that.

For me, I'm not into "drawing inspiration from many belief systems".

Jesus said "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." He wasn't into that whole spiritual smorgasbord type thing!

Fair enough. I read a quite a lot of athiest literature too. I prefer Dawkins to Hitchens, but to be honest both of them know a whole lot more about atheism than they do about religion. Which would be fine if they didn't insist on talking about religion as if they were experts.

This is not an atheist book. I would say it is a Christian book. It was written by a Anglican minister, and professor of religious studies. I'm just not doing a very good job explaining it, I guess.

Oh, I never thought it was an atheist book. I believe Horrim raised the atheist literature as an example of times when he does read philosophies that are not his. You've explained it pretty well in my opinion.

Oh and Horrim, I forgot to say that I loved your "spiritual smorgasboard" line. That's exactly what I do. Take a little bit from here, a taste of that, and consume a little too much than I need to.

I read 'A Prayer for Owen Meany' in Dec, written by John Irving, who is not a Christian. But in the book, someone, I believe it was Owen, says you shouldn't even call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection. If I remember, he was talking about how Easter should be more important holiday than Christmas. In any case, it was a starting point, as the resurrection is the central point of Jesus.

I think in years past, that was common sense for anyone talking about Christianity. Today, people think not so much. I can call myself a follower of Christ, even if I don't think He was real, and that Bible was made up. I don't know, seems like nonsense to me. I wouldn't call myself a Muslim if I believe Mohammad never lived and the Koran was just made up. Really what we're saying is, I like some things in that book (Bible or Koran), so therefore I can call myself Christian or Muslim.

Cybrweez wrote:I read 'A Prayer for Owen Meany' in Dec, written by John Irving, who is not a Christian. But in the book, someone, I believe it was Owen, says you shouldn't even call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection. If I remember, he was talking about how Easter should be more important holiday than Christmas. In any case, it was a starting point, as the resurrection is the central point of Jesus.

I think in years past, that was common sense for anyone talking about Christianity. Today, people think not so much. I can call myself a follower of Christ, even if I don't think He was real, and that Bible was made up. I don't know, seems like nonsense to me. I wouldn't call myself a Muslim if I believe Mohammad never lived and the Koran was just made up. Really what we're saying is, I like some things in that book (Bible or Koran), so therefore I can call myself Christian or Muslim.

Yes, you can be an admirer of Christ or a follower of his teachings without being a Christian. But if you use the term "Christian" to refer to yourself, typically you are saying you believe he was the son of God and was resurrected from the dead.

I suppose you could be an admirer of Muhammad or Buddha, without being a Muslim or a Buddhist, as well.

The quote on the inside cover of this book:

The very thing which is now called the Christian Religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.

St. Augustine

Cybrweez wrote:I read 'A Prayer for Owen Meany' in Dec, written by John Irving, who is not a Christian. But in the book, someone, I believe it was Owen, says you shouldn't even call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection. If I remember, he was talking about how Easter should be more important holiday than Christmas. In any case, it was a starting point, as the resurrection is the central point of Jesus.

I think in years past, that was common sense for anyone talking about Christianity. Today, people think not so much. I can call myself a follower of Christ, even if I don't think He was real, and that Bible was made up. I don't know, seems like nonsense to me. I wouldn't call myself a Muslim if I believe Mohammad never lived and the Koran was just made up. Really what we're saying is, I like some things in that book (Bible or Koran), so therefore I can call myself Christian or Muslim.

I know what you mean. I've said that the only thing common to all people who call themselves Christians is that they (think they) follow Christ's teachings. But even if I try to live by the wisdom of the Sermon on the Mount, I wouldn't call myself a Christian.

It seems to me that Good Friday should be the most important Christian holiday. Isn't THAT - Jesus sacrificing Himself for our sins - what is most important? The resurrection is the proof that Jesus wasn't just some other criminal who was killed. It's why people believe we can be Saved, but it's not why we are saved. Am I making sense?

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Cybrweez wrote:I read 'A Prayer for Owen Meany' in Dec, written by John Irving, who is not a Christian. But in the book, someone, I believe it was Owen, says you shouldn't even call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection. If I remember, he was talking about how Easter should be more important holiday than Christmas. In any case, it was a starting point, as the resurrection is the central point of Jesus.

I think in years past, that was common sense for anyone talking about Christianity. Today, people think not so much. I can call myself a follower of Christ, even if I don't think He was real, and that Bible was made up. I don't know, seems like nonsense to me. I wouldn't call myself a Muslim if I believe Mohammad never lived and the Koran was just made up. Really what we're saying is, I like some things in that book (Bible or Koran), so therefore I can call myself Christian or Muslim.

Yes, you can be an admirer of Christ or a follower of his teachings without being a Christian. But if you use the term "Christian" to refer to yourself, typically you are saying you believe he was the son of God and was resurrected from the dead.

I suppose you could be an admirer of Muhammad or Buddha, without being a Muslim or a Buddhist, as well.

Absolutely. I would say I try to follow Christ's teachings, and I certainly admire him. But I don't believe he was the Son of God (any more than I am), so I don't consider myself a Christian. Much of Buddhism speaks to me, and I engage in Buddhist meditation (among others), but I don't believe in karma or Nirvana, so I don't call myself a Buddhist.

Cambo...look for this book. I think it will speak to you.

I'm not sure if its available in New Zealand or not; hell I don't know if you can even get it in the States..Canadian Authors quite often aren't highly publicized..if you can't find it, and want to read it, let me know, I'll send you my copy.
Its certainly not a life changing book by any means...but its an eye opener; whether one believes in Jesus being the son of God, or just a man, or just an allegorical legend.

Thanks, Drew. I'll do my best to hunt it down.

Fist, you make sense to me. That's what I was trying to communicate. But, drew speaks of this author, who speaks of himself, as a Christian, and notes that he was an Anglican minister. Yet, the author admits he doesn't believe Jesus even existed.

For the average person, there's nothing odd about that. In my mind, its a bit of nonsense.