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Possible spoiler of "The Last Dark" in the GI?
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:09 pm
by T H E O M A C H
I just read Donaldson's reply to a question in the G.I. from Ian Boulton that may be a spoiler to 'The Last Dark' (you've been warned!) I discuss the spoiler at the bottom.
Q: How come the people of the land have a command of vocabulary that's almost as good as yours? Cord Bhapa just used the word "guerdon" and I bet he doesn't have a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary. Or even one of your American Webster ones!
Donaldson's answer:-
I'll restrict myself to a short answer. Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows.
He seems to be saying... in fact, he is saying, that every single character in the Chronicles is part of his psyche. He created them. If he created them, then either he's having the mother of all trips and will wake up in a crack-den at the end of the Last Dark, or he's an embodiment of the Creator, or something else. Misdirection perhaps? Or a very incomplete answer?
Thoughts anyone?
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:27 pm
by Zarathustra
T H E O M A C H wrote:Thoughts anyone?
My first thought was: haven't you read the First Chronicles? But that's a completley smartass answer, which you could easily counter with, "Sure I have. Haven't you read the Second Chronicles?" And I'd have to concede your point. But even though the Second Chronicles makes the issue of the Land's reality a matter of the "wrong question," or a question that misses the point, this isn't to say that Donaldson ever settled the issue. He has definitively stated in the GI that he never left behind the possibility that the Land was not entirely real in the same way as our world is real, that it in some sense is still meaningful to say that it's in Covenant's head. But this issue is complex, because you could say that the Land is in all our heads, or that the Land partakes in the same fundamental truths that transcend our own physical world. I think Donaldson has a Platonic way of thinking about the Land's reality, himself.
There are plenty of old, good threads about this subject in the 1st and 2nd Chrons forums. You might find them interesting.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:53 pm
by Borillar
I found myself taken aback by this GI answer too, because SRD has worked so hard to leave the answer to "is the Land real?" ambiguous, but this GI response appeared to dispel all doubt.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:02 pm
by Orlion
You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities. It could be a combination, it could be Linden's dream, it could be ether, who knows?
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:13 pm
by ur-Timewarden
Orlion wrote:You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities. It could be a combination, it could be Linden's dream, it could be ether, who knows?
I don't know if I would find any of the answers relating to someone's imagination acceptable after 10 books. People have been throwing out the "it's all a dream" ending as sort of a joke around here, and that's how I'd feel if it were thrust upon me on page six-hundred-something of TLD.
Would it be a possible outcome? Yes. Would it be a fulfilling outcome? I don't think so, but that's just my humble opinion.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:14 pm
by ur-Timewarden
Wait, let me clarify. If we say this is a product of SRD's imagination, I'm OK with that...
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:52 pm
by Zarathustra
Orlion wrote:You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities.
I had to emphasize the "or." You're exactly right, Orlion. I don't think it's a binary decision, either/or. It's a lot more complex.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:12 pm
by T H E O M A C H
Borillar wrote:I found myself taken aback by this GI answer too, because SRD has worked so hard to leave the answer to "is the Land real?" ambiguous, but this GI response appeared to dispel all doubt.
That was my reaction too. I'd been happy with the ambiguity, though to my mind it became a moot point once Linden was translated into the Land. This statement by Donaldson doesn't seem ambiguous, prime facie. However, judging by how the Last Chronicles have gone so far, I have faith in his ability to bring the series to a satisfying conclusion, and probably in a way that is more complex than the "real vs imaginary" scenarios.
I think the author regards his readership, and certainly his story, with too much regard to end with a Bobby Ewing shower scene.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 pm
by Zarathustra
T H E O M A C H wrote:Borillar wrote:I found myself taken aback by this GI answer too, because SRD has worked so hard to leave the answer to "is the Land real?" ambiguous, but this GI response appeared to dispel all doubt.
That was my reaction too. I'd been happy with the ambiguity, though to my mind it became a moot point once Linden was translated into the Land. This statement by Donaldson doesn't seem ambiguous, prime facie. However, judging by how the Last Chronicles have gone so far, I have faith in his ability to bring the series to a satisfying conclusion, and probably in a way that is more complex than the "real vs imaginary" scenarios.
I think the author regards his readership, and certainly his story, with too much regard to end with a Bobby Ewing shower scene.
The ambiguity being a "moot point," as you say, may be the explanation why Donaldson seems to emphasize the subjectivity angle when people ask him about it. Maybe he realizes that he has written too much evidence into the text for the "land is objectively real" theory, and needs to balance it out in his GI answers. Don't ignore this part of his answer:
SRD wrote:I'll restrict myself to a short answer.
He has given longer answers which maintain the ambiguity.
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:18 am
by T H E O M A C H
Zarathustra wrote:T H E O M A C H wrote: Don't ignore this part of his answer:
SRD wrote:I'll restrict myself to a short answer.
He has given longer answers which maintain the ambiguity.
You're quite right. I love the GI, but SRD has made something of a rod for his own back. Once something is out there, it's difficult to take it back. I'll stick with the ambiguity for the time being.
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:48 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
Donaldson tosses out the "It could be Covenant's dream" explanation every once in a while on the GI. It doesn't quite work, however; Covenant is dead in the "real" world. So the possible spoiler is: perhaps Covenant is not dead. Let's take it a step further and say that his "death" was part of a dream; therefore, the Land is/was a dream within a dream.
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:46 am
by Savor Dam
Mentally hearing an impressive clergyman with a speech impediment talking about "a dweam wiffin a dweam..."
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:31 am
by TheFallen
Orlion wrote:You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities. It could be a combination, it could be Linden's dream, it could be ether, who knows?
It could be ether, or chloroform, or even horse tranquilisers - let's face it, as a doctor, Linden has access to all sorts of mind-altering pharmaceuticals
.
However, I'm not going to pre-judge and am still keeping the faith - despite some evidence to the contrary both in the GI and in the LC so far - that SRD won't cop out and will achieve some form of satisfactory resolution... not an easy thing to do, I'd say, with all the loose ends and apparent contradictions/ambiguities, but here's hoping he pulls it off.
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:35 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
Savor Dam wrote:Mentally hearing an impressive clergyman with a speech impediment talking about "a dweam wiffin a dweam..."
"Impressive" is the key word there.
Re: Possible spoiler of "The Last Dark" in the GI?
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:29 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
T H E O M A C H wrote:I just read Donaldson's reply to a question in the G.I. from Ian Boulton that may be a spoiler to 'The Last Dark' (you've been warned!) I discuss the spoiler at the bottom.
Q: How come the people of the land have a command of vocabulary that's almost as good as yours? Cord Bhapa just used the word "guerdon" and I bet he doesn't have a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary. Or even one of your American Webster ones!
Donaldson's answer:-
I'll restrict myself to a short answer. Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows.
He seems to be saying... in fact, he is saying, that every single character in the Chronicles is part of his psyche. He created them. If he created them, then either he's having the mother of all trips and will wake up in a crack-den at the end of the Last Dark, or he's an embodiment of the Creator, or something else. Misdirection perhaps? Or a very incomplete answer?
Thoughts anyone?
Upon re-reading this question I wonder, did Covenant's mind create Linden Avery and everybody else in the "real" world?
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:19 am
by lurch
I think the title to the last book of the series is your answer..The Last Dark..It seems to me" Dark" as being The Mystery..Life..One's Life..and yes It IS all about ..Frame of Mind..The " Last" is the recognition by Linden that all her " Internal Troubles"..as made metaphor of in this fantasy " Land" are the result of How she thinks producing What she thinks..therefore she realizes since What she thinks always ends in a conflicted state of mind..the How has to change for the better, leading to..The Last Dark..The Last Mystery.
Ambiguity will be maintained...imho. Heck,,it worked for 9 books why in the world would he, the author, change at the last book? Ambiguity must not change for another reason also. The first chrons had a repeating mantra of..Be True..Be True to Yourself. Self Identity is at the core here, always has been with the TC Chrons. The Ambiguity has to be maintained inorder to keep it clear that it isn't about being Like TC or Linden..so fans would emulate the characters ( like the Humbled having fingers removed to be Like Berek, and TC,) but that Self Identity is each of OUR OWN Last Dark,,Big Mystery..to solve.. Unknown to explore..ultimate individual Answer to Find..Life. Thematically the Ambiguity must stay in place . The Author cannot answer objectively about an answer that is so subjective. Yes..each of Us has our own Land and that is the necessary Freedom of the author's Land.
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:00 am
by spoonchicken
the doctors at the leprosarium shot TC up with some really good stuff...he's been on an acid trip the entire time!!!
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:56 am
by Horrim Carabal
The "reality" of the Land and its Earth have always been (and still are) up in the air.
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:35 pm
by Believer
Am I the only one who just took it as a joke?
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:06 am
by Orlion
Believer wrote:Am I the only one who just took it as a joke?
Kinda a snappy comeback
Since there aren't any wizards in the Land, he can't say that they did it