Kevin's Watch

Hi all, this is my first post here, although I have been lurking as an unregistered user for a while, so please be gentle!

While I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with the LC I am still trying to stick to completing the course of reading all four books and now part way through AATE (the group have just escaped Mount Thunder) something has occurred to me... what happened to the Fire-Lions?

It seems to me that SRD just whisks up banes and potent theurgies every time he wants to introduce a situation of threat. While my thoughts on She Who Must Not Be Named can be set aside for another thread, I do feel that inasmuch as SRD deems it completely acceptable to just create a massively potent bane from nowhere, that we've never really heard of before to carry the story along, he equally deems it acceptable to drop others into obscurity.

Where were the Fire-Lions when the group was under threat by the skurj and 'She'? Although Covenant summoned them on the peak of Mount Thunder in LFB, surely as they are laval by nature they must have come from deep within the earth (unless the Land has dramatically different geological propreties to most worlds).

Understandably, with Esmer's presence it would not have been possible to use Covenant's ring to summon them, but surely they are creatures of raw Earthpower and therefore the Staff of Law would could have been used? And I don't accept the idea that everyone just conveniently 'forgot' about their existence because a) the Haruchai do not forget and b) in a situation so dire, one would clutch at any desperate measure in order to survive and surely someone would have at least suggested/thought of it.

What are your thoughts?

While I'm not disappointed by the Last Chronicles , I think your point is a very good one, the Fire Lions were made out to be a very big deal both in Berek's time and in LFB, and they're not even mentioned now.

Might there be a reference to them in TLD?

TheSeventhWard wrote:Hi all, this is my first post here, although I have been lurking as an unregistered user for a while, so please be gentle!

While I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with the LC I am still trying to stick to completing the course of reading all four books and now part way through AATE (the group have just escaped Mount Thunder) something has occurred to me... what happened to the Fire-Lions?

It seems to me that SRD just whisks up banes and potent theurgies every time he wants to introduce a situation of threat. While my thoughts on She Who Must Not Be Named can be set aside for another thread, I do feel that inasmuch as SRD deems it completely acceptable to just create a massively potent bane from nowhere, that we've never really heard of before to carry the story along, he equally deems it acceptable to drop others into obscurity.

Where were the Fire-Lions when the group was under threat by the skurj and 'She'? Although Covenant summoned them on the peak of Mount Thunder in LFB, surely as they are laval by nature they must have come from deep within the earth (unless the Land has dramatically different geological propreties to most worlds).

Understandably, with Esmer's presence it would not have been possible to use Covenant's ring to summon them, but surely they are creatures of raw Earthpower and therefore the Staff of Law would could have been used? And I don't accept the idea that everyone just conveniently 'forgot' about their existence because a) the Haruchai do not forget and b) in a situation so dire, one would clutch at any desperate measure in order to survive and surely someone would have at least suggested/thought of it.

What are your thoughts?

Have the Fire-Lions ever appeared anywhere but atop Mount Thunder? Maybe they can only manifest there. Have we seen the Lurker on the Plains of Ra?

As far as I know, the action did not take place atop Mt. Thunder in the Last Chronicles.

mcnpauls wrote:While I'm not disappointed by the Last Chronicles , I think your point is a very good one, the Fire Lions were made out to be a very big deal both in Berek's time and in LFB, and they're not even mentioned now.

Might there be a reference to them in TLD?

If any of the story takes place atop the mountain, probably. If not, probably not.

As for SRD's creation of new banes and powers....it was mentioned in LFB that LF buried many stones and periapts beneath Mt. Thunder when the Creator was doing his work. Hence the river becomes the defiles course as it flows through the mountain. Hence the Lurker is created/mutated and empowered in the Sarangrave.

The Illearth Stone was only the most useful for Foul. There are more. Frankly, I'm happy to see another one mentioned (She). I always wondered if any other banes would come to light.

I don't see a problem here at all. The banes under the mountain are a source of power for the evil beings in the Land. Foul needs a tool, he digs up the Stone. Kastenessen wants to create the Dirt, he uses/allies himself with She Who Must Not Be Named.

Where's the issue here?

Besides location [they do seem to be local, "on the peaks"],
I just think they're pretty small potatoes compared to the likes of SHE, and even perhaps the skurj [I mean, the magma of the earth is a cozy spring day for them...and they seem to find earthpower pretty tasty].
Now, a Sea Lion...that might be dangerous to the skurj.

Oh well, I guess that's that then

Also, remember that Donaldson tends to toss plot devices (races, places, weapons, tools, etc) aside pretty arbitrarily, when he decides he doesn't need them anymore. Remember the girffins in Lord Foul's Bane? Halfway through writing the series, he decided he didn't like them so just never mentioned them again!

I'm pretty sure they *were* mentioned in Runes, weren't they

They were also veeeery deep in Mt. Thunder, maybe even deeper than Fire-Lions would like... not to mention most beings tend to try to avoid that place (like the Insequent). Only the Viles and their spawn didn't seem too concerned about She...I wonder what they know about Her that the rest do not?

Also, there's no fire-lions in the Second Chronicles if I recall. This could be because Foul cleaned them up when he took residence there... Kevin's Dirt could also drive them out or kill them.

drew wrote:I'm pretty sure they *were* mentioned in Runes, weren't they

Yes indeed. In Mithil Stonedown, Stave told Linden that the Fire Lions had come to life on Mt. Thunder.

@Cambo: This was sort of the point I was trying to make, that SRD appears to use various elements while it suits the story, but once they have served a useful purpose he just moves onto some other device to provide the action/scenario.

Now the griffins, I really don't remember them at all. Looks like I'm going to have to start reading the 1st/2nd Chronicles all over again!

TheSeventhWard wrote:@Cambo: This was sort of the point I was trying to make, that SRD appears to use various elements while it suits the story, but once they have served a useful purpose he just moves onto some other device to provide the action/scenario.

Now the griffins, I really don't remember them at all. Looks like I'm going to have to start reading the 1st/2nd Chronicles all over again!

Yeah, it's part of his preferred method of conceptualising an ending, and then working out what would have to happen in order to arrive at that ending, in terms of plot and character development. Maybe OT, but I've seen people saying the Last Chronicles are less plot focused and more psychodrama than the previous series. I think it's more likely the ending Donaldson has envisioned simply requires Linden to go through huge shifts as a character. In my mind, that's a plotting device; Linden's "psychodrama" is going to be an essential element in the ending, as much as Covenant's Unbelief in TPTP.

And IIRC, the griffins have exactly one scene in the whole Chronicles, the battle under the big tree (what was it called?) where Foamfollower goes all beserker and Covenant has a crisis of conscience about killing Cavewights.

I fear you may be right about the plot line for the LC as it does seem to unnecessarily go on about Linden's self-loathing and failure time and time again to the point of excruciation.

And as far as the griffins are concerned, I imagine it was Soaring Woodhelven you are referring to. I'll have to re-read that chapter and see where they are mentioned.

I seem to recall the Griffins being a part of samadhi's army as well?

It doesn't matter. They passed from the Land with the Sunbane's coming, as did a ton of other flora and fauna. I wonder how the kresh survived?

Good question about the kresh, perhaps they followed the Raynym out of the Land.

The Griffins, SRD has said on a number of occasions in his GI that he kind of wished he didn't put them in, in the first place.

The Fire Lions are still there, I am pretty sure.. However they have shown themselves only to respond to the most extreme need, and indeed by a deep love for the Land.
Should any character be in the right place and call them in a time of dire need I believe they will respond.
As for the Griffins, it is true that the esteemed author had regretted using such a cliche in the First Chronicles. IIRC the griffins appeared in 4 places in the First Chronicles - when a group of bloodguard and mounted warriors attempted to confuse the trail for ur-viles and perhaps kresh, and attempt an ambush, the first battle at Soaring Woodhelvin (both in LFB) and then in the battle at Doom's Retreat, and then in the ruins of Doriendor Corishev.. (TIW).

drew wrote: The Griffins, SRD has said on a number of occasions in his GI that he kind of wished he didn't put them in, in the first place.

Yes, but the Sunbane gave him a great way to get rid of them.

Totally. =)

If you listen to Amok in TIW the Firelions could be sent as far as Fouls Creche by the Power of Command, so theyre not necessarily tied to the mountain top. Where did they manifest themselves to Berek? Ive always liked the Firelions, another part of the mystery and wonder of the Land. Alas, that mystery and wonder is failing to present itself this time around. As are the Firelions, despite hints that they could be involved in the plot.

Atrium wrote:If you listen to Amok in TIW the Firelions could be sent as far as Fouls Creche by the Power of Command, so theyre not necessarily tied to the mountain top.

The Power of Command can do crazy things. Besides that, I think they are tied to the mountain.

Atrium wrote:Where did they manifest themselves to Berek?

On the sides of the mountain, as usual.

You don't find the Lurker on the Plains of Ra, and you don't find the Fire-Lions at Revelstone.

You don't find the Lurker on the Plains of Ra

I hope we do in TLD