Kevin's Watch

Mark McDonald wrote:why did you not make Lena one of Covenant's dead in the Second Chronicles?

SRD wrote:The easy answer would be that Lena is not there because she wasn't Earthpowerful in life: her spirit has less of the requisite energy. Atiaran at least studied in the Loresraat, and Trell was a Gravelingas, but Lena had no special relationship with the "soul" of the Land.

That is not the easy answer, that is the weak answer. My re-reading of TWL indicates that anybody traveling to Andelain meets their own Dead, that's why they come back all crazy and the entire region has been banned from travelers. I don't suppose they meet the Earthpowerful Dead, but their average moms and pops etc. from the grave.

Donaldson goes on to write:

SRD wrote:That answer is accurate enough--as far as it goes. However, it feels like a bit of a cop-out. It might be more useful to say that she didn't fit in with what I was trying to accomplish in "The Second Chronicles." I didn't want to reintroduce the themes she represents because I was hoping to move beyond them. To move, perhaps, from guilt to restitution or reconciliation (as expressed by Covenant's caamora for the dead Giants in Seareach), which is arguably the main thrust of "The Second Chronicles." (Incidentally, this also explains Elena's appearance as healthy and loving, despite the fact that she wears a very different aspect later. There, unlike "The Last Chronicles," the Dead are trying to bring Covenant what he needs--and he doesn't need reminders of his guilt. He's going to get plenty of that from Lord Foul via the soothtell.) So I wouldn't say that Lena isn't there because Covenant wants to forget her. I would say she isn't there because--brace yourself--the story doesn't need her. (Now where have you heard *that* before?)
(11/03/2010)

I realize there are multiple levels implied in such questions, and I am very certain Donaldson wouldn't consider any of his serious answers copping-out. But the cop-out answer on the GI is always something like "the story didn't need her." Or, "I killed off Kasreyn because the story was finished with him." Or, "The people of the Land speak fluent college-graduate-level English because it is all just Covenant's dream." In this case, the strong answer, on the level most meaningful to the plot of the story, is that "he doesn't need reminders of his guilt." The Dead were there to help him, not bring him down by reintroducing him to a very uncomfortable past.

Anyway, I hesitate to think what kind of gift Lena would have brought for Covenant. And would she have appeared as old and anile, or young and nubile? (Hmmm, is "nubile" the antonym of "anile"?) If she appeared as the young Lena, maybe that would be the best gift: a version of Lena that Covenant can't even touch, much less rape.

You need an other option in the poll. I believe the fact that she wasn't there WAS her gift to Covenant. It's like saying that she wasn't there because previous harms had been redressed and she had nothing to do for the Land's future, so she's moving on doing whatever free dead people do (maybe knitting sweaters )

Meanwhile, relatives of natives of the Land would appear to their children because they felt betrayed and had a bone to pick, or wanted to warn them about what's going on.

Conclusion: Lena wasn't among the Dead because she didn't need to be. She had all ready forgiven Covenant and she had nothing to offer to the current defense of the Land.

Orlion wrote:You need an other option in the poll. I believe the fact that she wasn't there WAS her gift to Covenant. It's like saying that she wasn't there because previous harms had been redressed and she had nothing to do for the Land's future, so she's moving on doing whatever free dead people do (maybe knitting sweaters )

Meanwhile, relatives of natives of the Land would appear to their children because they felt betrayed and had a bone to pick, or wanted to warn them about what's going on.

Conclusion: Lena wasn't among the Dead because she didn't need to be. She had all ready forgiven Covenant and she had nothing to offer to the current defense of the Land.

Didn't I say in my comment that Lena's gift to Covenant was not showing up for the party?

And why are you trying to outdo Donaldson's answer? His was the answer I called "strong." Is your answer stronger than Donaldson's?

What do the Dead do the rest of the time? According to (I think it was) TLW, the Dead sleep until they are summoned to fulfill some purpose. Sometimes the purpose itself (e.g., the Land's need) awakens them; sometimes they are summoned by individuals wielding enough magic and the right skill.

Lena wasn't summoned because her presence there at that time would have done more harm than good. That's Donaldson's answer, among his other weaker answers. And we agree that this was her gift; but my poll is asking what gift would have been given had she showed up.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:You need an other option in the poll. I believe the fact that she wasn't there WAS her gift to Covenant. It's like saying that she wasn't there because previous harms had been redressed and she had nothing to do for the Land's future, so she's moving on doing whatever free dead people do (maybe knitting sweaters )

Meanwhile, relatives of natives of the Land would appear to their children because they felt betrayed and had a bone to pick, or wanted to warn them about what's going on.

Conclusion: Lena wasn't among the Dead because she didn't need to be. She had all ready forgiven Covenant and she had nothing to offer to the current defense of the Land.

Didn't I say in my comment that Lena's gift to Covenant was not showing up for the party?

And why are you trying to outdo Donaldson's answer? His was the answer I called "strong." Is your answer stronger than Donaldson's?

What do the Dead do the rest of the time? According to (I think it was) TLW, the Dead sleep until they are summoned to fulfill some purpose. Sometimes the purpose itself (e.g., the Land's need) awakens them; sometimes they are summoned by individuals wielding enough magic and the right skill.

Lena wasn't summoned because her presence there at that time would have done more harm than good. That's Donaldson's answer, among his other weaker answers. And we agree that this was her gift; but my poll is asking what gift would have been given had she showed up.

And if I think she'd bring a yak? You still need an other option
The Dead come if they want to, though they can be banished. No one summoned Kevin so that he could appear to Linden, he did that on his own. Further more, it's clear that Foamfollower and Mhoram didn't mean to bring up bad memories, but at one point (I think it's WL) we have Atiaran and Trell, who essentially tell TC, "look what you've reduced us to, you better kick some ass!" Bannor also wasn't too empathetic either.

Am I trying to outdo Donaldson? In what matter? I'm just speculating like you are

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:You need an other option in the poll. I believe the fact that she wasn't there WAS her gift to Covenant. It's like saying that she wasn't there because previous harms had been redressed and she had nothing to do for the Land's future, so she's moving on doing whatever free dead people do (maybe knitting sweaters )

Meanwhile, relatives of natives of the Land would appear to their children because they felt betrayed and had a bone to pick, or wanted to warn them about what's going on.

Conclusion: Lena wasn't among the Dead because she didn't need to be. She had all ready forgiven Covenant and she had nothing to offer to the current defense of the Land.

Didn't I say in my comment that Lena's gift to Covenant was not showing up for the party?

And why are you trying to outdo Donaldson's answer? His was the answer I called "strong." Is your answer stronger than Donaldson's?

What do the Dead do the rest of the time? According to (I think it was) TLW, the Dead sleep until they are summoned to fulfill some purpose. Sometimes the purpose itself (e.g., the Land's need) awakens them; sometimes they are summoned by individuals wielding enough magic and the right skill.

Lena wasn't summoned because her presence there at that time would have done more harm than good. That's Donaldson's answer, among his other weaker answers. And we agree that this was her gift; but my poll is asking what gift would have been given had she showed up.

And if I think she'd bring a yak? You still need an other option
The Dead come if they want to, though they can be banished. No one summoned Kevin so that he could appear to Linden, he did that on his own. Further more, it's clear that Foamfollower and Mhoram didn't mean to bring up bad memories, but at one point (I think it's WL) we have Atiaran and Trell, who essentially tell TC, "look what you've reduced us to, you better kick some ass!" Bannor also wasn't too empathetic either.

Am I trying to outdo Donaldson? In what matter? I'm just speculating like you are

I did say that the Land's need can summon the Dead from their sleep.

If you want to add "yak" that's fine, there's only been two votes thus far.

Bannor had no gift, he only asked the ur-Lord to redeem his people. Atiaran and Trell? Hmmm, I have to research this a bit. Atiaran chastised him for low morale and made him eat treasure-berries. I guess Trell just stood there like a dummy.

As I suspected, I can't edit a poll question once it's posted to the forum.

OMG! While researching the question of Trell and Atiarian I discovered that Lena was accompanying them from the Dead.

Poor Donaldson...

Something that just occurred to me ... wasn't Linden worried about meeting her Dead in Andelain, and that's why she didn't accompany Covenant? If I'm remembering correctly, that was a completely pointless fear. Dead from our world don't appear in the Land, right? Covenent didn't meet his grandparents, in other words (assuming they're dead).

I suppose this isn't necessarily a plot hole, since Linden never told Covenant her reasons for not entering ... right?

Zarathustra wrote:Something that just occurred to me ... wasn't Linden worried about meeting her Dead in Andelain, and that's why she didn't accompany Covenant? If I'm remembering correctly, that was a completely pointless fear. Dead from our world don't appear in the Land, right? Covenent didn't meet his grandparents, in other words (assuming they're dead).

I suppose this isn't necessarily a plot hole, since Linden never told Covenant her reasons for not entering ... right?

Linden believed Hollian's warning that there is something dangerous about Andelain. Due to his previous experiences there, Covenant would have none of it, so he wanted to go to Andelain and verify the truth for himself.

Edit - Here is Linden's actual reason, after viewing the region from the river: "I don't know anything about Andelain. I can't tell. It's too powerful. I can't stand anymore. I could lose my mind in there."

There may be more to it than that. She may have not trusted her own capacity for desecration, perhaps she believed that nothing containing such beauty and power should be allowed to exist. Thankfully, by the end of WGW, she had changed her mind. There may be hints of this line of reasoning further on in the story.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:OMG! While researching the question of Trell and Atiarian I discovered that Lena was accompanying them from the Dead.

Poor Donaldson...

You're right, and she did most of the talking, appeared old, and reminded (with their presence) Covenant of his crimes...wow...

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:As I suspected, I can't edit a poll question once it's posted to the forum.

Fixed that for you I'll take down that option soon, I just wanted to know if I could do it.

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:As I suspected, I can't edit a poll question once it's posted to the forum.

Fixed that for you I'll take down that option soon, I just wanted to know if I could do it.

I don't mind if it stays, toss in a few more if you want.

Edit - I didn't like the way that first sentence sounded, so I removed it.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:Something that just occurred to me ... wasn't Linden worried about meeting her Dead in Andelain, and that's why she didn't accompany Covenant? If I'm remembering correctly, that was a completely pointless fear. Dead from our world don't appear in the Land, right? Covenent didn't meet his grandparents, in other words (assuming they're dead).

I suppose this isn't necessarily a plot hole, since Linden never told Covenant her reasons for not entering ... right?

Linden believed Hollian's warning that there is something dangerous about Andelain. Due to his previous experiences there, Covenant would have none of it, so he wanted to go to Andelain and verify the truth for himself.

Edit - Here is Linden's actual reason, after viewing the region from the river: "I don't know anything about Andelain. I can't tell. It's too powerful. I can't stand anymore. I could lose my mind in there."

There may be more to it than that. She may have not trusted her own capacity for desecration, perhaps she believed that nothing containing such beauty and power should be allowed to exist. Thankfully, by the end of WGW, she had changed her mind. There may be hints of this line of reasoning further on in the story.

You're right about Linden's reasons. But I'm right about the issue of Linden's dead. The sentence I was thinking of was this:

And the woman of your world would raise grim shades here.

That's on page 225 of the paperback edition, in the chapter The Andelainian Hills. It's Caer-Caveral speaking to Covenant. So apparently dead from the real world can indeed travel to or be invoked in the Land. I think this sentence has to refer to Linden's parents, since she doesn't have any Dead from the Land itself, and her parents would obviously be very grim shades.

That means that breaking the Law of Death in the Land has affected the meaning and consequences of death in the "real" world. Quite a major revelation from one sentence! I can't believe it has never been discussed before. No wonder the Last Chronicles can still be called "... of Thomas Covenant." It is not merely his abeyance in the Arch of Time which has preserved him as a viable issue beyond his own death, but the fact that the breaking of the Law of Death itself has created a kind of portal between the worlds. Even if he'd never been placed in the Arch, even if he'd died in his own world after leaving the Land, he could still be brought back as a "shade."

Zarathustra wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:Something that just occurred to me ... wasn't Linden worried about meeting her Dead in Andelain, and that's why she didn't accompany Covenant? If I'm remembering correctly, that was a completely pointless fear. Dead from our world don't appear in the Land, right? Covenent didn't meet his grandparents, in other words (assuming they're dead).

I suppose this isn't necessarily a plot hole, since Linden never told Covenant her reasons for not entering ... right?

Linden believed Hollian's warning that there is something dangerous about Andelain. Due to his previous experiences there, Covenant would have none of it, so he wanted to go to Andelain and verify the truth for himself.

Edit - Here is Linden's actual reason, after viewing the region from the river: "I don't know anything about Andelain. I can't tell. It's too powerful. I can't stand anymore. I could lose my mind in there."

There may be more to it than that. She may have not trusted her own capacity for desecration, perhaps she believed that nothing containing such beauty and power should be allowed to exist. Thankfully, by the end of WGW, she had changed her mind. There may be hints of this line of reasoning further on in the story.

You're right about Linden's reasons. But I'm right about the issue of Linden's dead. The sentence I was thinking of was this:

And the woman of your world would raise grim shades here.

That's on page 225 of the paperback edition, in the chapter The Andelainian Hills. It's Caer-Caveral speaking to Covenant. So apparently dead from the real world can indeed travel to or be invoked in the Land. I think this sentence has to refer to Linden's parents, since she doesn't have any Dead from the Land itself, and her parents would obviously be very grim shades.

That means that breaking the Law of Death in the Land has affected the meaning and consequences of death in the "real" world. Quite a major revelation from one sentence! I can't believe it has never been discussed before. No wonder the Last Chronicles can still be called "... of Thomas Covenant." It is not merely his abeyance in the Arch of Time which has preserved him as a viable issue beyond his own death, but the fact that the breaking of the Law of Death itself has created a kind of portal between the worlds. Even if he'd never been placed in the Arch, even if he'd died in his own world after leaving the Land, he could still be brought back as a "shade."

I'm not trying to butt heads with you all the time, but really, you're only speculating that the grim shades would come from the "real" world, or that they would constitute Linden's Dead.

The portal you referred to existed before the breaking of the Law of Death, but the breaking of that Law made the summoning easier. It is in fact the very factor that made Covenant's summoning possible without the Staff both in TPTP and TWL.

There are quite a few dead individuals throughout history that could be brought to the Land as "shades" or even living beings. I don't know if it's true, but that sounds like an interesting story - except it's already been done. It's called Riverworld.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Presuming that she wasn't still crazy in death--and there is no reason to believe that she would be--I suspect Lena would reappear as her young self and *gasp* offer to forgive Covenent.

I'm not sure if he could stand that, though, since he never dodges guilt.

Is that your final answer?

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Why wouldn't it be?

Because of the post located at kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=806574#806574

I would take out all the references to herself in the poll question.

Wormy, of course I’m speculating. However, why else would Caer-Caveral say this? Why would Linden raise grim shades, and not happy ones? The fact that he knows which kind she would raise points to the fact he must know which shades, specifically, she would raise. And Donaldson has already spelled out that you raise your own personal Dead when you go to Andelain. So it’s not really much a of leap to conclude that she would raise her own parents there.

The “portal” I'm talking about did not exist before breaking the Law of Death. Just because Covenant (and Troy and Linden) could be summoned to the Land doesn’t imply anything at all about the barrier between life and death being broken so that dead people from TC’s “real” world could cross into it. Before breaking that Law, the Dead in the Land couldn’t even come back. So something new has indeed transpired. This is what we’ve all been missing: breaking a Law in the Land has consequences in the real world (e.g. dead from our world being able to cross over)! That’s huge! It's one thing for people from our world who are already in the Land to die there and have some kind of figurative, metaphorical existence (e.g. as a forestal, or as the

Spoiler

Timewarden

). But for a literal dead spirit from our world to be able to cross over commits Donaldson to a metaphysical stance on spirits/souls in the "real" world of TC and LA. That's unprecedented.

So let's follow this reasoning: if the Law of Death can have effects on the real world, what if the same could be said of the Law of Life applying to the real world?!? Last Chronicles speculation:

Spoiler

That would be the way to bring everyone home, alive!

[Edit: too much Last Chronicles speculation possibility here. I'm moving the discussion to the AATE forum. Join me there if you want to continue.]

Zarathustra wrote:Wormy, of course I’m speculating. However, why else would Caer-Caveral say this? Why would Linden raise grim shades, and not happy ones?

Because she is a grim, unhappy person capable of enormous desecration and who even murdered her own mother. That latter was definitely prosecutable, whatever the extenuating circumstances may have been.

Zarathustra wrote: The fact that he knows which kind she would raise points to the fact he must know which shades, specifically, she would raise. And Donaldson has already spelled out that you raise your own personal Dead when you go to Andelain. So it’s not really much a of leap to conclude that she would raise her own parents there.

Yes, average Stonedownors will see their dead relatives, but Linden Avery the Chosen is not your average person.

Spoiler

And we do have a really good clue in a book I can't mention here as to the identity of those grim shades. I think you know which book or books I am referring to.

Zarathustra wrote:The “portal” I'm talking about did not exist before breaking the Law of Death. Just because Covenant (and Troy and Linden) could be summoned to the Land doesn’t imply anything at all about the barrier between life and death being broken so that dead people from TC’s “real” world could cross into it. Before breaking that Law, the Dead in the Land couldn’t even come back. So something new has indeed transpired. This is what we’ve all been missing: breaking a Law in the Land has consequences in the real world (e.g. dead from our world being able to cross over)! That’s huge! It's one thing for people from our world who are already in the Land to die there and have some kind of figurative, metaphorical existence (e.g. as a forestal, or as the

Spoiler

Timewarden

). But for a literal dead spirit from our world to be able to cross over commits Donaldson to a metaphysical stance on spirits/souls in the "real" world of TC and LA. That's unprecedented.

So let's follow this reasoning: if the Law of Death can have effects on the real world, what if the same could be said of the Law of Life applying to the real world?!? Last Chronicles speculation:

Spoiler

That would be the way to bring everyone home, alive!

It is more likely that breaking the Law of Death allowed Foul to appear in the flames. As for the rest, well, speculating on this forum can provide hours of fun. As far as I know, only Dead Covenant can cross over, but only because he was already in the Land.

Zarathustra wrote:[Edit: too much Last Chronicles speculation possibility here. I'm moving the discussion to the AATE forum. Join me there if you want to continue.]

The statement I spoilered was a very obscure clue, at least I hope it was.