Kevin's Watch

There is one line from The Wounded Land which I've never give much thought until now (see Wormy's Lena poll thread in the 1st/2nd Chrons forum for the genesis of this idea).

"And the woman of your world would raise grim shades here."

That's from page 225 of the paperback edition, in the chapter The Andelainian Hills. It's Caer-Caveral speaking to Covenant about why it was good that Linden didn't enter Andelain. I think this sentence has to refer to Linden's parents, since she doesn't have any Dead from the Land itself, and her parents would obviously be very grim shades. Why else would he say this? Why would Linden raise grim shades, and not happy ones? The fact that he knows which kind she would raise points to the fact he must know which shades, specifically, she would raise. And Donaldson has already spelled out that you raise your own personal Dead when you go to Andelain. So it’s not really much a of leap to conclude that she would raise her own parents there.

If this is correct, dead from the real world can travel to or be invoked in the Land. This means that breaking the Law of Death in the Land has affected the meaning and consequences of death in the "real" world. Quite a major revelation from one sentence!

This is quite different from Linden or Covenant being able to travel to the Land. Just because Covenant (and Troy and Linden) could be summoned to the Land doesn’t imply anything at all about the barrier between life and death being broken so that dead people from TC’s “real” world could cross into it. Before breaking that Law, the Dead in the Land couldn’t even come back. So something new has indeed transpired.

This is what we’ve all been missing: breaking a Law in the Land has consequences in the real world (in this instance, dead from our world being able to cross over)! That’s huge! It's one thing for people from our world who are already in the Land to die there and have some kind of figurative, metaphorical existence (e.g. as a forestal, or as the Timewarden). But for a literal dead spirit from our world to be able to cross over commits Donaldson to a metaphysical stance on spirits/souls in the "real" world of TC and LA. That's unprecedented. Never before has he hinted that there is any literal life after death for the real world, much less one that can be invovled in the Land.

So let's follow this reasoning: if the Law of Death can have effects on the real world, what if the same could be said of the Law of Life applying to the real world?!? Would that be a way to bring everyone home, alive?

While your excitement is contagious, didn't Linden already raise grim shades, Kevin Landwaster, near the end of WGW?

It's a fascinating thought.
Of the top of my head, a couple ways, I don't actually want to think about it. One of those ways is just because I have my own theory I want to be right, cuz it too is basically "happy," and solves the real/unreal problem, but ignore that.

Another way I don't want to think about it...the potential is based on a violation of the Law of Life...
Soooo...was the original Law of Life a necessary condition for people to live/learn? Or, was it something perhaps necessary in the past, but that living/learning beings can grow not to need?
If the second...I can get behind your ending.
If the first...I'm very afraid of it.

And, of course, it might a difference if it's a them only, one-time deal, or an anyone can do it, permanent change. [or it might not...really, it only took one TC one trip to permanently alter the Land/world]

rdhopeca wrote:While your excitement is contagious, didn't Linden already raise grim shades, Kevin Landwaster, near the end of WGW?

True, but you wouldn't call Kevin "Linden's Dead," would you?

Then again ... Linden didn't raise her parents' shades when she finally entered Andelain. Maybe Caveral was full of crap.

Vraith wrote:was the original Law of Life a necessary condition for people to live/learn?

The original Law of Life is what was broken to bring Hollian back from the dead. Law of Death kept the Dead out of the land of the living, while Law of Life kept them from being reanimated. Together, the two of them were responsible for the distinction between life and death ... in other words, what made these two states meaningful.

Zarathustra wrote:

rdhopeca wrote:While your excitement is contagious, didn't Linden already raise grim shades, Kevin Landwaster, near the end of WGW?

True, but you wouldn't call Kevin "Linden's Dead," would you?

Then again ... Linden didn't raise her parents' shades when she finally entered Andelain. Maybe Caveral was full of crap.

Vraith wrote:was the original Law of Life a necessary condition for people to live/learn?

The original Law of Life is what was broken to bring Hollian back from the dead. Law of Death kept the Dead out of the land of the living, while Law of Life kept them from being reanimated. Together, the two of them were responsible for the distinction between life and death ... in other words, what made these two states meaningful.

Now I sort of want to go back to what was said to TC in Andelian during TWL to see exactly what Elena said when she said "care for her, so in the end she may heal us all"...as far as when exactly "in the end" really IS, and who the US is Linden is really healing...given what happened to Elena...

Zarathustra wrote: If this is correct, dead from the real world can travel to or be invoked in the Land. This means that breaking the Law of Death in the Land has affected the meaning and consequences of death in the "real" world. Quite a major revelation from one sentence!

This and the fact that Foul operates in the real world (albeit in reduced power and effectiveness) leads me to believe that TCs world might be in danger in TLD.

Interesting speculation..

I still wholly believe that Caer-Caveral was referring to High Lord Kevin, (when he mentioned 'grim shades') as opposed to any of Linden's dead from her 'real world'.

However, for the purposes of this thread, I will discuss several relevant ideas along these lines. Essentially the Grey Slayer is able to influence the 'real world' to some extent, and people from there can be translated to the Land, so there is a connection there.. It isn't too much of a stretch to think that the 'real world' dead could wander the world of the Land as ghosts.. But why would they? Do the dead of people from the rest of the world of the Land go to Andelain? Only dead people who have had significant experiences and love for the people of the Land, and 'earthpowerful' people seem to be in Andelain.. And most of them (Cail may be the only exception) died in the boundaries of the Land..

As rdhope says, Elena encourages TC to "care for her, so in the end she may heal us all".. I don't believe she is necessarily talking about the Dead here. That would imply that each of the Dead requires some sort of spiritual healing or forgiveness, which you can accept as a maybe for Elena and Kevin - but the rest? Haruchai / Bloodguard?? Giants like Foamfollower and Honniscrave? Mhoram? Sunder & Hollian? I don't think they need extra 'healing' or forgiveness at all..
Or there's a hypothesis (that's kinda Earthsea Cycle) where the Dead are essentially 'trapped' in Andelain, and need to be released to properly achieve their wanted rest.. I don't believe that applies here either, but it may be something to think about.

Ninjaboy, CC said "shades," plural. I guess he could have been talking about Kevin, too, but this doesn't eliminate others as well, given the plural. Additionally, I don't see how Linden's presence would have necessarily raised Kevin at that time (TWL). Kevin isn't her dead. The only reason he came to her in WGW was to talk her into stopping Covenant before he gave the ring to Foul. At that time, his appearance had more to do with circumstances than with Linden being the kind of person who raises grim shades. Would it have made sense for Kevin to appear to Linden for this reason in TWL? At that time, Covenant hadn't made up his mind to give up the ring to Foul. Kevin couldn't possibly have known what he would have done (necessity of freedom). So he would have had no reason whatsoever to confront her.

I predict Linden will have to confront her parents, just as TC confronted Joan. Those issues are still unfinished for her, as Donaldson has shown in AATE.

rdhopeca wrote: Now I sort of want to go back to what was said to TC in Andelain during TWL to see exactly what Elena said when she said "care for her, so in the end she may heal us all"...

As you rightly say, Elena is going to need one whole lot of healing now, given what's happened to her - she's now in a new uberhell of pain. However, SRD doesn't seem to do eternal damnation without any hope whatsoever for those who are merely fallible - even Kevin's finally achieved a sort of forgiveness/resolution, presumably allowing him to rest easy. On that admittedly slim basis, one would think that Elena, who was no more at fault than Kevin, might also be redeemed in some way. A currently unresolved issue that you'd think will be dealt with in TLD.

Zarathustra wrote: I predict Linden will have to confront her parents, just as TC confronted Joan. Those issues are still unfinished for her, as Donaldson has shown in AATE.

I'm entirely with Z on this - the "grim shades" must be Linden's parents. Kevin would have no relevance to her at that point... as others have said, he is not *her* dead and anyway the "shades" are plural.

Zarathustra's right. If one takes Linden's grim shades as her parents - and I think this is clearly intended - it necessarily follows that "real world" dead have the potential of being raised (if only to communicate with) in Andelain. That brings with it a host of metaphysical implications.

Either that or - Devil's advocate time - Caer Caveral is perceptive enough to be in some way aware of Linden's history without realising that her dead - the grim shades she carries within her - are not of the Land and therefore unraisable there, though frankly, this sounds like mere groping for justification.

Again I absolutely agree that Linden's issues with her parents are one *huge* thing that needs resolving, and for her to confront her own dead would allow this. Similarly, now Joan's dead in both worlds, this would also allow TC to interact with her again and resolve that relationship, for her as much as for him. This might well explain why the TC/Joan confrontation when it finally came in AATE wasn't much more than a thirty second "kiss my krill" mercy killing - something that gobsmacked me in its abruptness. Perhaps there's more interaction between TC and Joan to come?

TheFallen wrote:Perhaps there's more interaction between TC and Joan to come?

You should check out my predictions in the She-Bane thread. I think the Bane "is" Joan just as Foul "is" Covenant. And this metaphorical relationship becomes more literal in the next book. My reasoning for this is Donaldson saying (in AATE) that anyone who dies in the Land stays in the Land. They are usually transformed into a mythical archetype, like Hile Troy (Caer-Caveral) and Covenant (Timewarden). Joan is certainly unresolved, and Donaldson knew exactly what he was doing in making her confrontation so short.

Really, all the deaths that shocked everyone in AATE (Anele, Liand, etc.) could be moderated a bit in TLD now that the Law of Death is broken. Their stories don't have to be over at all.

I don't think "grim shades" apply to anyone other than Kevin.
Pitchwife and the First didn't see any dead in Andelain.
Sunder didn't see his first wife and son.
I think that's significant enough to dismiss any theories of Andelain being some kind of omni-world land of the Dead.
Linden didn't see her parents in either of the two times she was in Andelain after both the Laws of Life and Death were broken in the WGW or in the Last Chronicles.
Why not?

BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THE REAL WORLD.
IT'S ALL IN TC'S HEAD!

just my two - penneth but could the grim shade(s) referred to by Caveral be Covenant himself ?

that would imply that he could forsee not only the events of the rest of the second chronicles but also the last ones as well.....