Kevin's Watch

Coldspray's powerful, eloquently, appeal should have moved her with her words. the Ironhand on two separate occasions tried to make her see how well she had faced her enormous challenges.
Plus, I thought we were done with her self loathing in "White Gold Wielder."
I hope the Giant's words will finally sink in.

Hellfire, I hope so. Her constant self loathing is making reading AATE a painful experience. And let's face it, the story could be told in half the number of pages if she just stopped feeling so sorry for herself.

LZ, I thought you couldn't understand how people didn't like this book, but now you're providing reasons yourself. If you can come up with this one, does that mean you're a little more sympathetic to others' complaints?

Zarathustra wrote:LZ, I thought you couldn't understand how people didn't like this book, but now you're providing reasons yourself. If you can come up with this one, does that mean you're a little more sympathetic to others' complaints?

Well my point is Donaldson's writing has always been very painful. I couldn't stand Covenant being only able to say "Don't touch me" throughout most of TOT, the Sunbane was excruciating, and in TPTP I was dismayed beyond belief that there was no hurtloam.
This doesn't diminish what these books accomplish.
And even in the best writing everything is a little flawed anyway. I'm kind of going, "didn't Linden resolve all of this in the second chronicles?"
But see, if it wasn't for Linden's self pity, Coldspray's words would not have been so poignant.
For every agonizing, prolonged misery Donaldson puts us through there is always some triumph over it that makes the reader rally.

Well it was more than 10 years in real life, right? I guess she has a really thick head for such a great Doctor...

This is how, I fell, Donaldson writes now.

Rather than tell you that someone is wallowing in self pity...he beats you over the head with it, so you, as the reader, start to feel almost the same way.

We, as readers, start to go "Come ON Linden; pull yourself together" so much, that we actually experience what she is going through.

The same with Runes, with the use of the word Formication about seventy or eighty times.
Its not a good word to begin with, and with having to read it over and over and over again, we start to undersand the uncomfortablness that they were going through experiencing the formication.

drew wrote:This is how, I fell, Donaldson writes now.

Rather than tell you that someone is wallowing in self pity...he beats you over the head with it, so you, as the reader, start to feel almost the same way.

We, as readers, start to go "Come ON Linden; pull yourself together" so much, that we actually experience what she is going through.

The same with Runes, with the use of the word Formication about seventy or eighty times.
Its not a good word to begin with, and with having to read it over and over and over again, we start to undersand the uncomfortablness that they were going through experiencing the formication.

Vraith just posted a comment accurately describing Linden as severe and not in the least bit self-pitying. His description matches the characterization of her I have read since the beginning of the 2nd Chrons.

I've said this otherwhere, [long in the past, and just a few minutes ago, and in between]...and I'll probably say some more.
Anyone is perfectly free to dislike Linden...but self-pity is demonstrably false unless you want to redefine it.

Where'd you post that, V? I knew self-pity wasn't quite accurate, but I didn't know quite what else to call it.

Linden: struggling with "I AM a killer." But is that so? She has been one. But IS she? And people say she wallows...she does NOT. She struggles, she fights, she chooses. She does not PITY herself...she is, more so even then Covenant merciless to herself. With barely an instants peace, she compares the Ideal, Perfect Linden, falls short of it, then punishes herself in ways that her critics wouldn't punish a cockroach, let alone themselves, because it would be too cruel.
Galt and Stave [all the Haruchai to greater, or lesser extent]. They constantly claim "WE ARE." But...then they are not. Galt is the best example because clear, precise, definite. Stave says [roughly] "He remained himself." But the choice that defined that self-ness, at that moment, defied the "we are" of the people as a whole.

cool. I agree. this is why i am so absorbed in her struggle. I just got finished reading what Stave told her about Kevin's if.
I'm relieved someone's finally gotten through to her!

Linden is...." conflicted". When she lets go of her self absorbed " conflictions " and starts trusting other's inputs and talents and for that matter,, trusting the inexplicable,,do her " conflictions" become resolved...imho.

come on she does like a whinge

you know i would have liked Linden to be a bit more up for it, a bit like Hile Troy, give us a different perspective or to at least satisfy our viewpoint in getting things done for all the right reasons. i liked how SRD contrasted the TC/HT outlooks in one book. TC and LA are just a bit too similar for me

I agree that Linden is not mired in self-pity. She holds an unreasonably high standard for herself, and like was said, when she falls a bit short of meeting that standard, she over punishes herself. It's almost like she's after perfection, like she's got some Insequentness to her.

Her conflict of "I'm a killer." and "I'm a doctor." is causing an identity crisis for her. It's clear that she has killed, but that doesn't make her a killer. The Feroce, by use of their power when they made her trip down memory lane, caused a fundamental part of herself (that she's a healer first and foremost) to exert itself, to be remembered.

Now Linden has to find a way to cause the same exertion without any external assistance.

For me, what's happening to/in Linden parallels what happened to/in Covenant in the first two books.
The biggest battle TC had to fight was the conflict between his unbelief and his passion for the Land; the fear of being involved, the urge to shy away from any responsibility that might require a meaningful action. So he bargained, within himself, secretly; none of his bargains turned out to be what they were intended to be, but both contributed hugely to later developments of the story.

For Linded, a similar conflict is the "I don't care what happens to the Land, I will save Jeremiah whatever it takes and the hell with everyone else" attitude. She feels she is betrayed and manipulated by everyone, and receives a huge blow from the Roger-croyel happy couple so she makes a secret plan to resurrect Covenant and save Jeremiah someone, at any cost. But the resurrection does not turn out the way it is supposed to, and her lack of trust in anyone else but herself makes her blind to the truth that saving Jeremiah and saving the Land are two facets of the same thing.

Galt should have caved in her head, Linden is worse then useless. Her power is gimped, she can't make a decision without 5 pages of endless questions and then ignores the obvious, she treats Elena in a petty and vindictive manner, she is so self-absorbed that she doesnt care that Covenant is suffering, only that he isn't touching her, etc.

I have never despised a character as much as Linden, she has me rooting for Lord Foul to win, just to rid the universe of her stupidity.

hahahahahah that post cracked me up. But it does raise a valid viewpoint.
Linden was really harsh to Elena, unsympathetic. Yet of all the people to understand Elena its HER!!waking the worm was WAY worse than breaking the law of death. I understand the reasons behind her actions and why she needed Elenas advice, i do, but....dont have go to snap someone out of it (like that ever works!) and then fumble around with i dont know what to do patheticness yourself!!! shes was being a bit of a hypocrite.

jonnyredleader wrote:hahahahahah that post cracked me up. But it does raise a valid viewpoint.
Linden was really harsh to Elena, unsympathetic. Yet of all the people to understand Elena its HER!!waking the worm was WAY worse than breaking the law of death. I understand the reasons behind her actions and why she needed Elenas advice, i do, but....dont have go to snap someone out of it (like that ever works!) and then fumble around with i dont know what to do patheticness yourself!!! shes was being a bit of a hypocrite.

That's an idea worth a think. But off the top of my head I see the relationship in a different frame, the important element [from Linden's POV] "LF got you, your father didn't stop/rescue you and you died. I will NOT let that happen to my son."

It's not self-pity. It's despair. You may have heard of it - it's what the entire series is about.

Yeah I can see that, dont get me wrong I'm no Linden hater. I just found her so insensitive and unsympathetic considering she just watched Kevin get forgiven and was emotionally moved by it. Even wildwood berated her for her harshness. It's a point in these stories that the characters act like a conscience to the protagonists regulary. The manethrall did the same to TC after he casually watched his daughter and one time love interest sacrifice herself to save them all from a certain death.
Will they forgive the poor girl now?