Kevin's Watch

what i been waiting for

done. two more years.

Lord Zombiac wrote:done. two more years.

You mean, up until this point, you've been fervently taking up every available cudgel to defend AATE to the hilt - and yes, I am aware that your average cudgel doesn't have a hilt, but never mind - and you hadn't even finished the book??

I admire your faith even more than I raise an eyebrow at any leap to judgement before all the evidence available has been examined

For what it's worth, I've just re-read ROTE and FR, and have just started re-reading AATE, because it's possible that may allow me to form a fairer opinion of the Last Chrons as a whole - so far (yes Worm, I *know* they're incomplete as yet ). I'm mindful that some of my disquiet/ambivalence over AATE *may* have been caused by viewing it in too discrete/stand-alone a light - I didn't re-read the first two volumes of the LCs before diving avidly into AATE the first time.

Time will tell - I'll post my possibly altered burblings once I'm through it again.

Well a good book is a good book and unless it ends poorly, you can tell by the first or second chapter.
also, These books are the first I've read in over ten years; if they sucked I'd have never been able to finish them.

Lord Zombiac wrote:Well a good book is a good book and unless it ends poorly, you can tell by the first or second chapter.
also, These books are the first I've read in over ten years; if they sucked I'd have never been able to finish them.

So do you think Covenant altered the past in the last chapter when he visited Foul in his Creche and the forestals?

I think he plainly states that Foul, in the past, is still unaware of him.

As to the forestals, the mystery deepens.

SRD has introduced names that we've never heard before:

Syr Embattled! What a kick ass name! Hard to conceive that SRD could come up with a name like that and not explore the character.

Two years and some several months is too long to wait!

I think people who don't like the LC are truly cheating themselves!

Lord Zombiac wrote:I think he plainly states that Foul, in the past, is still unaware of him.

As to the forestals, the mystery deepens.

SRD has introduced names that we've never heard before:

Syr Embattled! What a kick ass name! Hard to conceive that SRD could come up with a name like that and not explore the character.

Two years and some several months is too long to wait!

I think people who don't like the LC are truly cheating themselves!

Syr Embattled to me sounds too made-up, like "Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Film" from King Arthur and the Holy Grail.

I think if you look again, you will find that Foul did notice Covenant's shade in the past, and dismissed it.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I think if you look again, you will find that Foul did notice Covenant's shade in the past, and dismissed it.

Are you serious? That's so cooool! I finally brought my copy of the Chronicles from hiding... I think my grades can survive

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I think if you look again, you will find that Foul did notice Covenant's shade in the past, and dismissed it.

Are you serious? That's so cooool! I finally brought my copy of the Chronicles from hiding... I think my grades can survive

Grades? Anyway, it was difficult to spot because Donaldson is blurring the distinction between fantasy and reality at this point. Or moreso than usual.

The big question is this: If Covenant changed the past by interacting with Foul and the forestals in this way, why didn't it shatter the Arch immediately?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I think if you look again, you will find that Foul did notice Covenant's shade in the past, and dismissed it.

Are you serious? That's so cooool! I finally brought my copy of the Chronicles from hiding... I think my grades can survive

Grades? Anyway, it was difficult to spot because Donaldson is blurring the distinction between fantasy and reality at this point. Or moreso than usual.

The big question is this: If Covenant changed the past by interacting with Foul and the forestals in this way, why didn't it shatter the Arch immediately?

It would definitely give a different interpretation of time... and it makes (kinda) some sense, after all, Covenant was somehow able to help preserve Jeremiah's mind as Timewarden. This leads to an inquiry: what could he do as Timewarden? We know that he could preserve the Arch (from whitegold blasts, anyway), he can observe past events, he can interact with the Dead, and he can manifest himself in dreams as well as possess Anele. What are his limitations?

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote: Are you serious? That's so cooool! I finally brought my copy of the Chronicles from hiding... I think my grades can survive

Grades? Anyway, it was difficult to spot because Donaldson is blurring the distinction between fantasy and reality at this point. Or moreso than usual.

The big question is this: If Covenant changed the past by interacting with Foul and the forestals in this way, why didn't it shatter the Arch immediately?

It would definitely give a different interpretation of time... and it makes (kinda) some sense, after all, Covenant was somehow able to help preserve Jeremiah's mind as Timewarden. This leads to an inquiry: what could he do as Timewarden? We know that he could preserve the Arch (from whitegold blasts, anyway), he can observe past events, he can interact with the Dead, and he can manifest himself in dreams as well as possess Anele. What are his limitations?

Aren't you talking around the question? Covenant as you know wasn't Timewarden at the time. And why would it give a different interpretation of time?

Why wouldn't it? I'm merely gathering speculation before I say anything else, but I believe that the common conception of time is as a line. It's pretty determinate, and any deviation (through, oh, say paradoxes) would break that line. In the viewpoint of the Chronicles, it would bring about the collapse of the Arch.

This need not be the case.

From what I can remember of Donaldson interviews, he views causality as being the key characteristic of Time. Relevant? Maybe (just don't call me a Ceda ). Now, the next point comes where there's an idea that if the space between Past A and present B is not observed, what ever happens between them is variable... all we know is that we got from A to B. So from the observers' viewpoint, nothing has change. We just have a definite path where before it could have been anything.

Of course, that's not how I view things

Orlion wrote:Why wouldn't it? I'm merely gathering speculation before I say anything else, but I believe that the common conception of time is as a line. It's pretty determinate, and any deviation (through, oh, say paradoxes) would break that line. In the viewpoint of the Chronicles, it would bring about the collapse of the Arch.

This need not be the case.

From what I can remember of Donaldson interviews, he views causality as being the key characteristic of Time. Relevant? Maybe (just don't call me a Ceda ). Now, the next point comes where there's an idea that if the space between Past A and present B is not observed, what ever happens between them is variable... all we know is that we got from A to B. So from the observers' viewpoint, nothing has change. We just have a definite path where before it could have been anything.

Of course, that's not how I view things

It's "causality and sequence," by the way. I see you're still speculating. No need to speculate, the answer or part of it lies in the text. But I don't want to affect your grades with my questions.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:Why wouldn't it? I'm merely gathering speculation before I say anything else, but I believe that the common conception of time is as a line. It's pretty determinate, and any deviation (through, oh, say paradoxes) would break that line. In the viewpoint of the Chronicles, it would bring about the collapse of the Arch.

This need not be the case.

From what I can remember of Donaldson interviews, he views causality as being the key characteristic of Time. Relevant? Maybe (just don't call me a Ceda ). Now, the next point comes where there's an idea that if the space between Past A and present B is not observed, what ever happens between them is variable... all we know is that we got from A to B. So from the observers' viewpoint, nothing has change. We just have a definite path where before it could have been anything.

Of course, that's not how I view things

It's "causality and sequence," by the way. I see you're still speculating. No need to speculate, the answer or part of it lies in the text. But I don't want to affect your grades with my questions.

Thanks! I do need to do some calculations... but maybe you could wait a couple of days and post any way?

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:Why wouldn't it? I'm merely gathering speculation before I say anything else, but I believe that the common conception of time is as a line. It's pretty determinate, and any deviation (through, oh, say paradoxes) would break that line. In the viewpoint of the Chronicles, it would bring about the collapse of the Arch.

This need not be the case.

From what I can remember of Donaldson interviews, he views causality as being the key characteristic of Time. Relevant? Maybe (just don't call me a Ceda ). Now, the next point comes where there's an idea that if the space between Past A and present B is not observed, what ever happens between them is variable... all we know is that we got from A to B. So from the observers' viewpoint, nothing has change. We just have a definite path where before it could have been anything.

Of course, that's not how I view things

It's "causality and sequence," by the way. I see you're still speculating. No need to speculate, the answer or part of it lies in the text. But I don't want to affect your grades with my questions.

Thanks! I do need to do some calculations... but maybe you could wait a couple of days and post any way?

Calculations?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: It's "causality and sequence," by the way. I see you're still speculating. No need to speculate, the answer or part of it lies in the text. But I don't want to affect your grades with my questions.

Thanks! I do need to do some calculations... but maybe you could wait a couple of days and post any way?

Calculations?

Yeah, in preparation for some spectroscopic measurements of various element in apples!

Orlion wrote:[Yeah, in preparation for some spectroscopic measurements of various element in apples!

Here's a shortcut for you... bitta peel, bitta stalk, some fair few pips, loadsa flesh and bitta that tough core bit that ain't too tasty. Them's the various elements in apples. A real science man don't need no pesky spectroscope...

TheFallen - Doctor in Advanced Botany - University of Podunk, West Virginia.

TheFallen wrote:

Orlion wrote:[Yeah, in preparation for some spectroscopic measurements of various element in apples!

Here's a shortcut for you... bitta peel, bitta stalk, some fair few pips, loadsa flesh and bitta that tough core bit that ain't too tasty. Them's the various elements in apples. Don't need no pesky spectroscope where I come from...

TheFallen - Doctor in Advanced Botany - University of Podunk, West Virginia.

Sounds like you're dissecting the Chrons for analysis.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

TheFallen wrote:

Orlion wrote:[Yeah, in preparation for some spectroscopic measurements of various element in apples!

Here's a shortcut for you... bitta peel, bitta stalk, some fair few pips, loadsa flesh and bitta that tough core bit that ain't too tasty. Them's the various elements in apples. Don't need no pesky spectroscope where I come from...

TheFallen - Doctor in Advanced Botany - University of Podunk, West Virginia.

Sounds like you're dissecting the Chrons for analysis.

It does rather, doesn't it? Maybe the Chrons are so universal that quite literally anything could stand up as a metaphor for them...

Packers = Feroce, Steelers = ur-Viles, anyone? (well the colours are sort of right...)

theWormattheWorldsEnd wrote:I think if you look again, you will find that Foul did notice Covenant's shade in the past, and dismissed it.

I think not...

AATE wrote:Begone, spectre, the Despiser said in Covenant’s mind. You have no place here. You do not exist. Your time will never come.
That voice violated time and memory. It came from a different version of existence, a brief disruption enabled by the caesure. Lord Foul then had not known that Covenant’s spirit was watching now from its remembered place within the Arch of Time. The Despiser had believed himself triumphant.

Begone, spectre, the Despiser said in Covenant’s mind. You have no place here. You do not exist. Your time will never come.
That voice violated time and memory. It came from a different version of existence, a brief disruption enabled by the caesure. Lord Foul then had not known that Covenant’s spirit was watching now from its remembered place within the Arch of Time. The Despiser had believed himself triumphant.