Kevin's Watch

So we know what they are.. Like the skest, they are descendents from the jheherrin.

But their power of confusing Linden, of sending her back into her past and altering those memories in order for her to to throw the lurker the Staff.. Did that feel a little odd to anyone else?
Isn't it odd that the Feroce have that ability, when none of the other jheherrin descendents seem to have any magical abilities? And doesn't it seem like a rather 'un-Land like' magical ability too?

I forget: were the jheherrin cast offs of Lord Foul's experiments with the Illearth Stone, or the ur-Viles? If the former, that could explain the "un-Land-like" abilities; most Land magic is drawn from Earthpower. It would also explain the grren lights they carry around.

I thought it was a very interesting ability. The use of the Feroce's power on the stone ledge to hold it up for the Ranyhyn to cross was also referred to as making the stone "remember." That to me suggests that the recollection they are able to induce has less to do with actual memories and more to do with the subject's fundamental nature. The stone remembered what it was: "permanence at rest". Hence the ledge held. Linden remembered who she was: a healer. Hence the importance of the medical bag in her vision.

This might be stretching it a bit, but remember all references to Linden having a heart of stone in the second half of FR? Then during AATE, it seemed her stone heart had shattered. Perhaps having remembered who she was- a healer- might have been an unintentional benison. Ie it helped her shattered heart hold together a little longer?

Cambo wrote:I forget: were the jheherrin cast offs of Lord Foul's experiments with the Illearth Stone, or the ur-Viles? If the former, that could explain the "un-Land-like" abilities; most Land magic is drawn from Earthpower. It would also explain the grren lights they carry around.

I thought it was a very interesting ability. The use of the Feroce's power on the stone ledge to hold it up for the Ranyhyn to cross was also referred to as making the stone "remember." That to me suggests that the recollection they are able to induce has less to do with actual memories and more to do with the subject's fundamental nature. The stone remembered what it was: "permanence at rest". Hence the ledge held. Linden remembered who she was: a healer. Hence the importance of the medical bag in her vision.

This might be stretching it a bit, but remember all references to Linden having a heart of stone in the second half of FR? Then during AATE, it seemed her stone heart had shattered. Perhaps having remembered who she was- a healer- might have been an unintentional benison. Ie it helped her shattered heart hold together a little longer?

The jhehherin were cast offs from Fangthane's experiments, though I believe he was capable of warping and creating things to serve him prior to his obtaining the Illearth Stone.. He'd had armies attacking the Upper land for hundreds, possibly even thousands of years before he obtained that bane.

I agree - I appreciate the way they got the stone to 'remember' and hold - that was a great use.. And in a sense it may contain something akin to Pitchwive's 'wiving' from the 2nd Chrons. However my interpretation of Linden's 'remembering' sequence was a little different from yours.. I'm not sure that the Feroce were encouraging her to remember that she's a healer, they were altering her memories so she would be trapped in them, and fight off her companions.. Her medical bag was important as it was her only way of gettig out of the burning house.

I also think there may be a possibility that the Lurker may have come across a piece of the Illearth Stone asd is using that to control the Feroce.. Personally i don't want that to be the case.. I want that particular bane to have been dealt with forever!

Anyway, whatever the truth is about these Feroce and their powers, I have a strong suspicion we'll see them again in the next book, and will hopefully get some answers out of somebody!

My AATE is 1000 miles away from me right now, so I can't look and be sure...but I had the impression that the mind-bending was the Lurker's power, and the Feroce were just relay stations for it.

ninjaboy wrote:However my interpretation of Linden's 'remembering' sequence was a little different from yours.. I'm not sure that the Feroce were encouraging her to remember that she's a healer, they were altering her memories so she would be trapped in them, and fight off her companions.. Her medical bag was important as it was her only way of gettig out of the burning house.

I don't think they deliberately made her remember she was a healer. I think their power is less specific than that. I think they can make their subjects "remember," and throw in some little suggestions or nuances- like the necessity to throw away the Staff- and what the subject remembers is determined by their own nature.

Vraith..
That is an interesting notion. I suppose the thing that sticks out for me is that we've read interactions between questers and the Lurker before. In both the First and Second Chrons, and I am not 100% sure, but am pretty confident that in neither of those previous interactions had the Lurker had such powers..

But there is a theory that the Lurker was the means that Fangthane rent Kelenbhrabanal.. And I mention this because now I think about it, there are some similarities between the memories that the Feroce trapped Linden in and the experiences and imagery the Ranyhyn used in their horserite to convey messages or warnings to Elena, Linden and Stave. That's also a long bow to draw.. But an interesting hypothesis.

The Feroce's ability to make stone 'remember' is probably something they have for themselves, regardless of their relationship with the Lurker.. But at any rate, how old is Horrim Cabal anyway? Could it also possibly be an immortal? It's lived for a very very very long time so far.. If it's old enough though, could it possibly have the knowledge of creating a forbidding powerful enough to stop the Worm? It obviously wanted the Staff for something..

To turn into a prince mayhap?

I think I like the idea that the "monsters" are multi-dimensional rather than mindless killing machines, I wonder is this setting us up for Foul not being, well..... so foul?

However I again turn to the remaining pages and wonder how feasible it is to open avenues of exploration with the prospects of them rapidly closing or and/or being left unexplored.

The feroce interaction with the stone also makes me wonder about Anele's perhaps untimely end?

There are just too many possible ways these things could fit together. Horrim...an Immortal? I don't think so, [because it is afraid of the end...a psuedo-immortal...perhaps] but yea, old as hell, and yea it had to want the staff for something. A forbidding? from a bad guy? neat idea. But remember things need not start evil, need not remain so. The Feroce have a potency...but they're naive/limited, so submit/get overwhelmed [parallel ravers to LF?], become tools of the greater power. Which way will they/Lurker jump? Will they keep the bargain? Or break it?

And yea, Finn...not much time left...OTOH...how far apart ARE the powers? Not very, IIRC. Jerry, TC, LF, Linden, Horrim, SHE, Infelice [last we knew], Longwrath, Roger, skurj. Others we don't know about for sure, but good god, these ones are practically stacked on top of each other under the Worms nose!
Honestly, I can't decide if the next step is trench warfare, or a chase scene across the Land.
And I think you're on a possible right track...I also speculated somewhere the chance that LF won't be revealed as "good," exactly...but not quite what he seems now, when in his natural state.

Agree that Horrim's not a true immortal, because as Vraith says, it's scared of the impending doom and wants items of power as some form of possible protection.

Also agree that the Feroce's mind-bending power seems to be their own - however they came by it - rather than something transmitted from the Lurker, because the Lurker never showed itself as having any active hypnotic ability in Chrons 1 and 2, as Ninjaboy said.

Re Kelenbhrabanal, from what I remember, isn't it actually explicitly stated in AATE that LF did in fact engineer the Lurker being the means of K's death? If so, it's a bit more than a theory. I seem to recall that Mahrtiir states this to explain the Ranyhyn's peculiar fear of the Sarangrave flats - it's a racial memory thing.

Vraith wrote:But remember things need not start evil, need not remain so... And I think you're on a possible right track...I also speculated somewhere the chance that LF won't be revealed as "good," exactly...but not quite what he seems now, when in his natural state.

Good point and there's a fair bit of this in AATE. Horrim's an ally all of a sudden, and who, having read Chrons 1 and 2, would have ever thought tha possible? Okay it's a very self-interested alliance, formed solely because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend!, but even so. In direct connection to this, the Feroce also change sides. Plus Esmer of course is the ultimate friend and enemy in one neat combo package... as is Anele to a large extent.

And don't forget the ur-Viles, who have shown themselves throughout the LCs to be absolutely stalwart allies, having utterly redefined their view of their own weird - without their continual self-sacrificing assistance, the company would have been toast numerous times.

Whether this duality is going to apply in the end to LF as well, I'm not so sure. I can however see it applying to SWMNBN who may well turn out to have a hand in resolution, and definitely to Longwrath as well, what with his Elohim-caused madness and his Sandgorgon-slaying sword. It is a central theme throughout all the Chrons that a) innocence is powerless and therefore futile, that b) power is effective but inevitably brings guilt and crucially that c) it's only the guilty (and therefore the powerful) that have the possibility of being redeemed.

And yes the powers are stacked up in one huge face-off. From what I can see, teams as follows:-

Definitely good guys & friends...
TC, Linden, Stave, ur-Viles, Waynhim, Ranyhyn, Ramen, Giants, Wraiths

Currently good guys...
Horrim Carabal, the Feroce

Undecided but looking friendly...
The Masters, Jeremiah, the Insequent

Undecided but looking dubious...
Longwrath, the Sandgorgons

Too worried to play...
The Elohim

Definitely bad guys & friends...
Lord Foul, Roger, Kastenessen, Skurj, Ravers, Kresh, Skest

Pretty much bad news...
She Who Must Not Be Named

All-time bad news...
The Worm of World's End

Missing...
The Creator

That's one helluva Superbowl we're due in TLD...

Isn't it also suggested at one point that the Ravers have some connection to the Lurker, i.e., that it might have given birth to them, or something along those lines? If so, the Lurker is much more powerful than a disgruntled octopus.

Cambo wrote:

I don't think they deliberately made her remember she was a healer. I think their power is less specific than that. I think they can make their subjects "remember," and throw in some little suggestions or nuances- like the necessity to throw away the Staff- and what the subject remembers is determined by their own nature.

Early on in Linden's Feroce trip down memory lane (on pg. 447), it states that There was something that she needed to remember. Now that line may refer to a small number of things in the context of her memory, but it can also refer to something else as well, as Cambo has suggested. I like the notion that the Feroce exerting their memory power over her causes something fundamental in her nature to exert itself, to become re-membered as a part of her.

There's also a bit of a translation between worlds thing going on with this Feroce-caused memory experience. Perhaps the notion could be stretched a bit farther to include the idea that Linden needs something from her world to meet the Land's need (which is also her need?)...something fundamental that makes her who she is.

TC has always held fast to the necessity of remaining a leper when in the Land; he's done so consistently throughout the Chronicles. And Linden...?

A thought just struck me- the only similar thing I've seen to the Feroce's powers in the entire Chronicles has been the visions Lord Foul imposes upon Covenant in Foul's Creche. Visions of...leprosy. Taunting Covenant with the essential fact of his identity. And the "leper's rage" was a crucial part of TC unlocking the wild magic. Is it possible the Feroce's power was descended directly from the Despiser?

Earthbrah wrote:TC has always held fast to the necessity of remaining a leper when in the Land; he's done so consistently throughout the Chronicles. And Linden...?

Think of the correspondence between the medical bag in the vision and the Staff in the Land (interesting reversal there- the "real" world is delusion and the Land becomes "reality"). Linden clung to her identity as a healer throughout the 2nd Chrons. That holds true for the early stages of the Last Chrons, but after the Earthblood in FR, and particuarly in AATE, she seems more adept at killing. Perhaps she needs to remember that she originaly formed the Staff as an instrument of healing; her first act with it was to heal an entire country.

omg..I just realized yet another " similarity" between the Last Chrons, and the TV show Lost : the burning house of Haven Farm and Jacob's Cabin. Both ended up going up in Smoke,,and it was only after the burning down,,could things seem to move towards " choices you never realized you had".
Some impression I had of the Feroce and their power,,was,,yea,'' choices you never realized you had"..Otherwise we would had already known about them. That whole scene was, again, a nice piece done in Surrealism. Cambo's and Earths posts while not mentioning the word Surreal..describe the scene in surreal terms...yes. memories are subjective and can not be reliable beyond a point..but still. memories, dreams, et al, can lead to the foundational..central questio's answer to " Who Am I?"

So..the Feroce..a bunch of Andre Breton clones..or ..what Damon and Carlton have taken up doing until another project comes along?

TheFallen wrote:Agree that Horrim's not a true immortal, because as Vraith says, it's scared of the impending doom and wants items of power as some form of possible protection.

Also agree that the Feroce's mind-bending power seems to be their own - however they came by it - rather than something transmitted from the Lurker, because the Lurker never showed itself as having any active hypnotic ability in Chrons 1 and 2, as Ninjaboy said.

So the Lurker is, say, as mortal as the Elohim or Ravers, in that they can live through most things except the destruction of their world. And as Borillar suggests, Horrim Cabal potentially has some sort of relationship with the Ravers, and potentially has more ability or significance than we realise.

TheFallen wrote:Re Kelenbhrabanal, from what I remember, isn't it actually explicitly stated in AATE that LF did in fact engineer the Lurker being the means of K's death? If so, it's a bit more than a theory. I seem to recall that Mahrtiir states this to explain the Ranyhyn's peculiar fear of the Sarangrave flats - it's a racial memory thing.

I have no doubt that we are meant to believe that is what happenned. The simple fact, however, is that no-one knows for sure, except the Render, and whomever it was who was the means of Kelenbhrabanal's death. The Ramen have thought about it for centuries, and the best they can do is guess that it was Horrim Cabal who rent Kelenbhrabanal, which explains the fear the Ranyhyn have of the Lurker. Just because it is the most widely supported theory does NOT make it any more than a theory. It seems like one of Donaldson's tricks to make us consider something as the truth and then whack us around the head with the real truth.

And to be honest, something seems a little 'off' with the Ranyhyn's actions. If the Sarangrave is the location of K's death, then I would imagine that it would be a sacred place to them, a place of reverence. If the Lurker rent K, either they would be full of hatred and anger for the Lurker, or wounded pride and would resolve not to be over-awed. That's just what I think though.

This is good a place as any to comment on the Lurker. Is it a ancestral human memory that a overwhelmingly large tentacled beast (Kraken anyone?) should inhabit a body of water in the path of a quest? Did SD have any compunctions about calling his the "Lurker" after JRRT had a very similar beast/name in front of the gates of Moria? Now I don't accuse anyone of rip-offs because there are no new ideas under the Sun, or there werent since the days of Alley Oop. And one could argue, now especially, the SD's Lurker is more complex than JRRT's although we don't know for sure. JRRT's Lurker was not really examined butt I could imagine it being another seminal beast such as Shelob, that had an existence independent of the main evils of the ages, just as SD's Lurker does. Don't get me started on antecedents of LOTR, so when people accuse SD I just laugh. With the Feroce and incidents in AATE, this Lurker gets a voice and POV, and when all is safe in the world he will probably be rehabilitated and be giving pony rides to Covenant's grandkids at picnics. I can't wait.

I'm not a fan of the Lurker being the instrument of K's death...partly it just...bugs me for some reason. But also, I'm not sure the timing works because, although my books are far away and I don't know why I think I know this, I think I know that the Lurker was really nothing special [in either evilness or power] long after K was already dead.
Now, I suppose it might work if Lurker was just a more normal predatory being [which I'm pretty sure it once was], and it was able to kill K cuz he agreed to die...and the combination of feeding on K and serving LF was the beginning of its path [with the oozings from under the Mount just exacerbating the process]...but it seems unlike LF to touch/corrupt something then just let it go about its own business for so very long [I mean, we're talking almost 10k years here].

Vraith wrote:I'm not a fan of the Lurker being the instrument of K's death...partly it just...bugs me for some reason. But also, I'm not sure the timing works because, although my books are far away and I don't know why I think I know this, I think I know that the Lurker was really nothing special [in either evilness or power] long after K was already dead.
Now, I suppose it might work if Lurker was just a more normal predatory being [which I'm pretty sure it once was], and it was able to kill K cuz he agreed to die...and the combination of feeding on K and serving LF was the beginning of its path [with the oozings from under the Mount just exacerbating the process]...but it seems unlike LF to touch/corrupt something then just let it go about its own business for so very long [I mean, we're talking almost 10k years here].

I agree with this to some extent..
IF the Lurker was chosen by Fangthane to slay or rend the big K, well.. Why? The Grey Slayer is a pretty thorough planner, and it seems that there wasn't too much thought put into selecting Horrim Cabal (if indeed it was he) over other beings..

ninjaboy wrote:

Vraith wrote:I'm not a fan of the Lurker being the instrument of K's death...partly it just...bugs me for some reason. But also, I'm not sure the timing works because, although my books are far away and I don't know why I think I know this, I think I know that the Lurker was really nothing special [in either evilness or power] long after K was already dead.
Now, I suppose it might work if Lurker was just a more normal predatory being [which I'm pretty sure it once was], and it was able to kill K cuz he agreed to die...and the combination of feeding on K and serving LF was the beginning of its path [with the oozings from under the Mount just exacerbating the process]...but it seems unlike LF to touch/corrupt something then just let it go about its own business for so very long [I mean, we're talking almost 10k years here].

I agree with this to some extent..
IF the Lurker was chosen by Fangthane to slay or rend the big K, well.. Why? The Grey Slayer is a pretty thorough planner, and it seems that there wasn't too much thought put into selecting Horrim Cabal (if indeed it was he) over other beings..

Yes, but as we're told towards the end of AATE, Mahrtiir and the Ramen are near on certain that it was the Lurker that killed Khelenbhranal - and their evidence being based upon the Ranyhyn being scared of only one thing in the whole Land - although circumstantial - is fairly convincing. Let's face it, if anyone's going to have an understanding of some racial memory surviving over the eons within the Ranyhyn, it's going to be the Ramen.

TheFallen wrote: Yes, but as we're told towards the end of AATE, Mahrtiir and the Ramen are near on certain that it was the Lurker that killed Khelenbhranal - and their evidence being based upon the Ranyhyn being scared of only one thing in the whole Land - although circumstantial - is fairly convincing. Let's face it, if anyone's going to have an understanding of some racial memory surviving over the eons within the Ranyhyn, it's going to be the Ramen.

Yea, you could be right, and it might work...but I don't find it satisfying. That might change if there's more to the story and we learn what that is...but as it stands....possible, but I don't like it.

Edited to add: IIRC, there's also that the Rany's didn't seem to be afraid of the Lurker in advance of the first confrontation with it, and then were ashamed that they were afraid of it. They acted as if surprised by own reaction.

TheFallen wrote:

ninjaboy wrote:

Vraith wrote:I'm not a fan of the Lurker being the instrument of K's death...partly it just...bugs me for some reason. But also, I'm not sure the timing works because, although my books are far away and I don't know why I think I know this, I think I know that the Lurker was really nothing special [in either evilness or power] long after K was already dead.
Now, I suppose it might work if Lurker was just a more normal predatory being [which I'm pretty sure it once was], and it was able to kill K cuz he agreed to die...and the combination of feeding on K and serving LF was the beginning of its path [with the oozings from under the Mount just exacerbating the process]...but it seems unlike LF to touch/corrupt something then just let it go about its own business for so very long [I mean, we're talking almost 10k years here].

I agree with this to some extent..
IF the Lurker was chosen by Fangthane to slay or rend the big K, well.. Why? The Grey Slayer is a pretty thorough planner, and it seems that there wasn't too much thought put into selecting Horrim Cabal (if indeed it was he) over other beings..

Yes, but as we're told towards the end of AATE, Mahrtiir and the Ramen are near on certain that it was the Lurker that killed Khelenbhranal - and their evidence being based upon the Ranyhyn being scared of only one thing in the whole Land - although circumstantial - is fairly convincing. Let's face it, if anyone's going to have an understanding of some racial memory surviving over the eons within the Ranyhyn, it's going to be the Ramen.

Just because they think it is the most likely reason doesn't make it true. But they aren't just afreaid of the lurker, I can tell you right know they were terrified of Covenant when he first appeared. Now how do you account for that? Did Covenant slay the big K as well?