Kevin's Watch

And I'm guessing that Sinn

Spoiler

is the fire elemental from Y'ghatan?

Also, I never noticed really that

Spoiler

Hetan came back

How did that happen?

--A

Yeah, Onos Toolan's reward in the end was him, his wife and his children being brought back to life.

Sinn, I don't know, something happened in Y'Ghatan when she was exposed to the inferno, but I dont' think anything in TCG suggests more than that she was an immensely powerful but emotionally crippled child with no real control over her actions.

Sinn becomes very problematic in TCG, by the way. Really bad move by Erikson, having a rape survivor be permanently damaged by the rape such that she's completely unable to function and is reduced to nothing more than a primal force with no humanity left in her.

Murrin wrote: Sinn becomes very problematic in TCG, by the way. Really bad move by Erikson, having a rape survivor be permanently damaged by the rape such that she's completely unable to function and is reduced to nothing more than a primal force with no humanity left in her.

This is as good a place as any to have this discussion. Is it ever 'not problematic' to have a rape survivor be permanently damaged and reduced to a husk of what they once were? Isn't that a problem in real life (though granted, not the only problem with rape)? Throughout the series, rape is never presented as just being 'x' or just 'y', so why is it a problem as 'z'? Wouldn't that also make Lena's behaviour in The Power that Preserves also problematic?

For my part, I think it all comes to the tricky theme of the Crippled God. People who are unjustly/justly hurt will strike back if given the power, justly and unjustly. What's the answer? One can sympathize with and assist the victims, but in this story that isn't enough. Sometimes, you have to just stab them in the back.

That is what is the strong point/problem of the series. In my humble opinion.

How much rape do we actually see in the series, where we see what happens to the victim afterward? Sinn is the only one I recall, and that's really the point of what I was saying.

If you portray rape as something that irrevocably damages people and makes them unable to function as a person, you're removing the victim's agency, dehumanising them, making "rape victim" the label that defines them. Yes, it damages people, but it doesn't have to define them. If you make that step, you're telling actual rape victims that the crime commited against them is more important than they are.

Murrin wrote:How much rape do we actually see in the series, where we see what happens to the victim afterward? Sinn is the only one I recall, and that's really the point of what I was saying.

If you portray rape as something that irrevocably damages people and makes them unable to function as a person, you're removing the victim's agency, dehumanising them, making "rape victim" the label that defines them. Yes, it damages people, but it doesn't have to define them. If you make that step, you're telling actual rape victims that the crime commited against them is more important than they are.

Stonny comes to mind as another example.

Ah, right, I'd forgotten that. Much better protrayal, yeah.

Murrin wrote: Sinn, I don't know, something happened in Y'Ghatan when she was exposed to the inferno, but I dont' think anything in TCG suggests more than that she was an immensely powerful but emotionally crippled child with no real control over her actions.

Uh-uh, when Stormy and Gessler try and stop her from ascending the spire, her humanity is openly questioned in the narration.

And in Bonehunters, the fire elemental was sorta looking for a way to escape dying after the firestorm.

--A

Oh yeah...finished this last night. It was even better this time round.

--A

I agree TCG is flooring me the second time.

Finished this a few days ago...was kinda disappointed with most of Dusk of Dreams, this was a lot better! Glad I got through the series, though I guess there's some more to wrap up coming from ICE and maybe more from Erikson too.

Murrin wrote:Yeah, Onos Toolan's reward in the end was him, his wife and his children being brought back to life.

Sinn, I don't know, something happened in Y'Ghatan when she was exposed to the inferno, but I dont' think anything in TCG suggests more than that she was an immensely powerful but emotionally crippled child with no real control over her actions.

Sinn becomes very problematic in TCG, by the way. Really bad move by Erikson, having a rape survivor be permanently damaged by the rape such that she's completely unable to function and is reduced to nothing more than a primal force with no humanity left in her.

Think that's a bit of an overstatement of Sinn's lack of humanity...I didn't pay much attention throughout the books to her, but she obviously was pretty driven to save the survivors of Y'Ghatan's inferno. I also remember a scene of her being particularly touchy feely needy with a female marine, in an uncomfortable scene that, nonetheless, shows her as having need for compassion. Her cruelty more seemed to develop over time...

But as I said, I don't really remember a lot of her story, so there could be a lot missing.

Wouldn't that also make Lena's behaviour in The Power that Preserves also problematic?

I think Lena is very different from Sinn. Early in LFB, we get signals that she does see herself as a victim of Covenant and has the very oft-noted mentality of sexual abuse victims of guilt and unwillingness to reveal that they have been attacked. And, of course, she wants Covenant's message to the Lords to be delivered. This shows that, while she suffers damage, she is in many ways very much intact, and can make a "brave sacrifice" of herself for the Land (though I suppose that self sacrifice could be questioned as well). And I believe that in TPTP, there is some point - possibly when she discovers Elena is dead - that she basically becomes rather rational, sane, and hateful of Covenant: perhaps still damaged, but not really acting as strange as Sinn.

How much rape do we actually see in the series, where we see what happens to the victim afterward? Sinn is the only one I recall, and that's really the point of what I was saying.

Besides what has been said, Seren Pedac...I actually remember a lot more of the immediate afterward of the trauma for her and Stonny than I do for Sinn, which is to say I don't remember whether we actually see her dealing with it.

I suspect that Sinn was incorporated by the fire elemental, or absorbed it or something. Much was briefly made about the fact that it knew it was going to be dying soon or something. I think Sinn was its way out.

As for Hetan...always sorta thought that was a bit of a cop-out. "All that horrible shit happened, but it's ok, you're brought back to life..."

--A

Finally finished. Boy, what a ride. The Bonehunters are possibly my favourite thing in a fantasy story ever.

Personally, I found it didn't really sink in fully until I'd read it again.

--A

I'm sure it would be cooler after another reading, but I'm not ready to tackle books 5-10 again yet. Only once each so far. *sigh*

Still, it's the best thing ever. As I assume I said somewhere above, the Snake turned out to be the coolest thing! Fiddler was my answer even before Paran asked Quick the question. Tavore surprised me a little with her motivations. Not as horrid a woman as I thought.

Interesting that you rate the Bonehunters the best thing of all, Cambo. They couldn't replace the Bridgeburners in my heart and head. But I won't argue the point. They certainly are amazing. It's just that I see them as an extension of the Bridgeburners, since Fid is their leader. But then, I don't think of Wings as an extension of the Beatles, so maybe I should try to view them more on their own. And they certainly have enough of their own unique characters that are amazing in their own ways.

Oy! Such love for Erikson here.

I did enjoy the series up until about the Bonehunters.

I was really disappointed with some of his choices after that. Did not like the ending. Did not like the "twists". Did not like the unfinished hanging plot lines.

As it is, it's still a great series, but the last book or two knocked it down from the potential classic it could have been. Not as badly as, say, the last few of Stephen King's Dark Tower books (which completely soured me on the whole thing), but still.

So now that I'm finished, can anyone give me a blow by blow summary of exactly what went down between Heboric, the souls within the Jade Strangers, and Kaminsod?

No

Dammit. Does anyone understand what happened there?

Cambo wrote: Dammit. Does anyone understand what happened there?

no.

You people are infuriating.