Here's the story:
www.630wpro.com/Article.asp?id=2127526&spid=
Michael Woodmansee confessed to raping, killing, eating and then saving the bones of John Forman's five year old son as a trophy of his murder. He was sentenced to 40 years in prison in a plea deal that was supposed to spare the family the pain of a public trial. Woodmansee is to be release sometime soon and Mr. Forman has threatened to kill Mr. Woodmansee. Woodmansee only served 28 years of his 40 year sentence.
I'm torn in this case. I can only imagine (and really don't want to imagine) the pain Mr. Foreman must be going through.
If Mr. Forman were to kill Mr. Woodmansee would you vote to convict him of murder, of manslaughter (passion required), would you vote to aquite. I suspect I'd vote to aquite.
Father of Rape/Murder Victim threatens paroled killer
Father of Rape/Murder Victim threatens paroled killer
"Futility is the defining characteristic of life. Pain is proof of existence" - Thomas Covenant
-
High Lord Tolkien
- Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH
- Posts: 7383
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: Cape Cod, Mass
- Been thanked: 3 times
- Contact:
Alibi? money? I'd give him all the help he needed.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
This is one of those cases I hate. As a father, I'd do exactly what Mr. Foreman is planning on doing. However if I was a prosecutor I'd try him for first degree murder, and if I was on a jury I'd vote to convict.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Murder's murder, and vigilantism is dangerous. What Foreman is doing is no different than if Woodmansee announced that upon release he was going to rape and eat another child.
There's no self defense here, nor is there a compelling case to be made for the defense of others, nor for a crime of passion. Foreman has announced that he will hunt down Woodmansee and kill him in cold blood. That's first degree murder by any yardstick, and by voting for anything other than conviction, you're not participating in jury nullification (because I'm assuming you believe that first degree murder should be a crime), you're ignoring the law based on your emotional reading of the case.
There's no self defense here, nor is there a compelling case to be made for the defense of others, nor for a crime of passion. Foreman has announced that he will hunt down Woodmansee and kill him in cold blood. That's first degree murder by any yardstick, and by voting for anything other than conviction, you're not participating in jury nullification (because I'm assuming you believe that first degree murder should be a crime), you're ignoring the law based on your emotional reading of the case.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
High Lord Tolkien
- Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH
- Posts: 7383
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: Cape Cod, Mass
- Been thanked: 3 times
- Contact:
SerScot, on paper Cail is right.
The father would be breaking the law.
But until everyone starts turning themselves in for driving over the speed limit I'm going to give the Dad a free pass.
I'd still want him tried in court though, but leave it up to a jury to decide.
That way "free passes" are subjective based on the case, like it should be.
The father would be breaking the law.
But until everyone starts turning themselves in for driving over the speed limit I'm going to give the Dad a free pass.
I'd still want him tried in court though, but leave it up to a jury to decide.
That way "free passes" are subjective based on the case, like it should be.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
HLT,
Oh, I agree. There is no question that the father, if he kills this man would be breaking the law. I'm simply wondering, if you were on the jury, you would vote to convict him for murder, or manslaughter (crime of passion) or if you would aquite. It appears you and I would aquite but Cail would vote murder. I think all are prefectly reasonable positions to hold.
Oh, I agree. There is no question that the father, if he kills this man would be breaking the law. I'm simply wondering, if you were on the jury, you would vote to convict him for murder, or manslaughter (crime of passion) or if you would aquite. It appears you and I would aquite but Cail would vote murder. I think all are prefectly reasonable positions to hold.
"Futility is the defining characteristic of life. Pain is proof of existence" - Thomas Covenant
-
sgt.null
- Jack of Odd Trades, Master of Fun
- Posts: 47250
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:53 am
- Location: Brazoria, Texas
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 6 times
since the state has failed to honor their promise - i would vote on manslaughter. emotional duress has to be taken into account.
i want to hear from each member of the parole board on why they would ever let this mosnter out. if i were on the board i would be pushing for civil commitmemnt after the sentence ran out.
i want to hear from each member of the parole board on why they would ever let this mosnter out. if i were on the board i would be pushing for civil commitmemnt after the sentence ran out.
Lenin, Marx
Marx, Lennon
Good Dog...
Marx, Lennon
Good Dog...
-
TheFallen
- Master of Innominate Surquedry
- Posts: 3155
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:16 pm
- Location: Guildford, UK
- Has thanked: 1 time
Yes, Cail's of course right, but I also have some faith in jury nullification. I would vote for manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
However, it's a very dangerous road to tread, if we start maintaining that the principles of our subjectively perceived "natural" justice override those of "legal" justice. But then again, why do we have a jury system, if issues are to be decided on the letter of the existing law alone?
This from a somewhat similar 1992 UK case...
Regina v Owen (1992)
Stephen Owen was acquitted of all six charges brought against him, including attempted murder, wounding and possessing a gun with intent to endanger life. His son had been killed in a road traffic accident involving Mr Taylor who had knocked him off his bicycle with a 30-tonne truck. Kevin Taylor’s lorry was not insured and was unroadworthy. He had never passed a driving test and he was blind in one eye. He was convicted of reckless driving and received an 18-month prison sentence. On his release from prison, Stephen Owen traced him to his home address and confronted him there, shooting him in the back.
On the facts of the case, Owen was undoubtedly guilty of the charges of wounding and possession of a gun with intent. However, despite the judge’s clear instruction ‘to approach the evidence, not stop to consider whether we have feelings of liking, disliking or even loathing for Kevin Taylor’, the jury acquitted Owen on all counts.
Lots more relevant detail here, if interested.
However, it's a very dangerous road to tread, if we start maintaining that the principles of our subjectively perceived "natural" justice override those of "legal" justice. But then again, why do we have a jury system, if issues are to be decided on the letter of the existing law alone?
This from a somewhat similar 1992 UK case...
Regina v Owen (1992)
Stephen Owen was acquitted of all six charges brought against him, including attempted murder, wounding and possessing a gun with intent to endanger life. His son had been killed in a road traffic accident involving Mr Taylor who had knocked him off his bicycle with a 30-tonne truck. Kevin Taylor’s lorry was not insured and was unroadworthy. He had never passed a driving test and he was blind in one eye. He was convicted of reckless driving and received an 18-month prison sentence. On his release from prison, Stephen Owen traced him to his home address and confronted him there, shooting him in the back.
On the facts of the case, Owen was undoubtedly guilty of the charges of wounding and possession of a gun with intent. However, despite the judge’s clear instruction ‘to approach the evidence, not stop to consider whether we have feelings of liking, disliking or even loathing for Kevin Taylor’, the jury acquitted Owen on all counts.
Lots more relevant detail here, if interested.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" 
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
Sgt. Null,
I believe they are obligated to let this guy out under the "Good Behavior" Statute in Rhode Island.sgt.null wrote:since the state has failed to honor their promise - i would vote on manslaughter. emotional duress has to be taken into account.
i want to hear from each member of the parole board on why they would ever let this mosnter out. if i were on the board i would be pushing for civil commitmemnt after the sentence ran out.
"Futility is the defining characteristic of life. Pain is proof of existence" - Thomas Covenant
The state didn't do anything wrong here at all, and the more I think about it, Foreman ought to be charged right now for threatening to kill Woodmansee.
Foreman's son was killed 36 years ago, and the guy who did it has spent 28 years in prison for it. I'm sorry, but at some point you have to let it go. If this had happened a year or two ago, I could see Foreman going on a killing spree. But after 36 years and the killer did hard time?
Nah, Foreman's in the wrong here.
Foreman's son was killed 36 years ago, and the guy who did it has spent 28 years in prison for it. I'm sorry, but at some point you have to let it go. If this had happened a year or two ago, I could see Foreman going on a killing spree. But after 36 years and the killer did hard time?
Nah, Foreman's in the wrong here.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
I've got to go with Cail on this. I'd be very tempted, if my child, to take him out. But I would expect to be convicted for it. And, on a jury, I'd convict him. Pure, premeditated, murder in the first.
I'm not opposed to jury nullification entirely...it carries dangers, but also provides protections. I support it when the purpose is to counter over-reaching/injustice/misapplication of the law/charges, or violations of rights in the investigation/prosecution process. I don't support it just because there is some sympathy or understanding of the defendant's acts/situation. And I realize that's a situation where different people judge differently. For instance, I generally believe if a person is a violent spouse/child abuser, and the spouse/child takes them out, the legal definitions of imminent threat, self-defense, and defense of others are too restrictive...often, living in such a situation, the victim is under imminent threat pretty much 24/7, IMHO.
I feel for this guy, and understand it, nevertheless he'd be guilty as sin...every bit as guilty as the guy who killed his child. [I might feel differently if it had been 2 days, weeks or even years...but not after 28].
I'm not opposed to jury nullification entirely...it carries dangers, but also provides protections. I support it when the purpose is to counter over-reaching/injustice/misapplication of the law/charges, or violations of rights in the investigation/prosecution process. I don't support it just because there is some sympathy or understanding of the defendant's acts/situation. And I realize that's a situation where different people judge differently. For instance, I generally believe if a person is a violent spouse/child abuser, and the spouse/child takes them out, the legal definitions of imminent threat, self-defense, and defense of others are too restrictive...often, living in such a situation, the victim is under imminent threat pretty much 24/7, IMHO.
I feel for this guy, and understand it, nevertheless he'd be guilty as sin...every bit as guilty as the guy who killed his child. [I might feel differently if it had been 2 days, weeks or even years...but not after 28].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
This is a tough one. Perfectly understandable how Foreman feels, but, yea, the monster was sentenced and served time, and was released, it happens every day in America. As understandable as it is, we can't sanction Vigilantism.
I'm just glad I wouldn't be on the jury, because although I know Murder would be the correct verdict, I'm not sure I could actually do that to Foreman.
I'm just glad I wouldn't be on the jury, because although I know Murder would be the correct verdict, I'm not sure I could actually do that to Foreman.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
-
Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
Whether the time served was enough for one crime is one issue.sgt.null wrote:so 28 years is enough?
sorry i don't buy that.
Whether we approve of and permit another crime is a different issue.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Vraith,
Part of my difficulty is knowing I'd be terribly tempted to do exactly what Mr. Formane is threatening if one of my children were treated as his child was.
I think another factor here is that Mr. Formane's wife died several years back and as such he believes he has nothing to lose if he kills his child's murderer.
Part of my difficulty is knowing I'd be terribly tempted to do exactly what Mr. Formane is threatening if one of my children were treated as his child was.
I think another factor here is that Mr. Formane's wife died several years back and as such he believes he has nothing to lose if he kills his child's murderer.
"Futility is the defining characteristic of life. Pain is proof of existence" - Thomas Covenant
-
sgt.null
- Jack of Odd Trades, Master of Fun
- Posts: 47250
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:53 am
- Location: Brazoria, Texas
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 6 times
the parole board's adresses should be public in this case. good time is a joke - a feel good measure that has no bearing on reality.Vraith wrote:Whether the time served was enough for one crime is one issue.sgt.null wrote:so 28 years is enough?
sorry i don't buy that.
Whether we approve of and permit another crime is a different issue.
of course he behaved himself - no kids to murder and eat in prison.
i work with these animals and can tell you they do not deserve freedom ever. and yes i have worked with inamtes who murdered and did horrible things.
Lenin, Marx
Marx, Lennon
Good Dog...
Marx, Lennon
Good Dog...
