A Game of Thrones

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue May 07, 2019 5:41 pm

Well, the first time it came up she was speaking to Tyrion when he was arranging the truce/summit end of last season. For what reason would Cersei invent a baby to throw in Tyrion's face? I can't think of one. At that time Jaime was on her side.

Also, the whole let-Euron-believe-it's-his-baby plan doesn't work unless there IS a baby.

Post by **lucimay** » Tue May 07, 2019 6:40 pm

hmmm. baby? no baby? Jamie's baby?

gah! who can keep up with her machinations! but yeah...prolly Jamie's.

AND PROLLY A DWARF!! WOOT!

oh Zar...regarding the whole Ghost deal. for me, tho I am a pet person, it wasn't so much about caring about Ghost (tho I do) it was about him behaving uncharacteristically. of course my Jon Snow is the book Jon Snow and that is the Jon Snow that would not behave that way. I concede that show Jon Snow might be different. it just seemed weird. <shrug>

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue May 07, 2019 8:45 pm

Does anyone think Drogon could take out the King's Landing dragon-slayer ballista if he came straight down from above?

Post by **Sorus** » Tue May 07, 2019 10:04 pm

I'm Murrin wrote:
Speaking of magical teleportation, I'm pretty sure it's not physically possible for Daenerys' Unsullied to have arrived on the landward side of King's Landing to talk to Cersei unless Cersei's forces are utterly incompetent. The city is surrounded by the bay on two sides and a river on the third, with Euron's fleet occupying all of that.

And Euron sinks all their ships, then leaves them alone and apparently even lets them return to get all their armor and whatnot, which must have been an ordeal. And how exactly did he manage to capture Missandei? His fleet wasn't even in the picture when it shows them coming ashore with the wreckage in the background.

And where are they staying? It looks like Dragonstone, but Dragonstone is an island, and they lost their ships.

They must also have ravens and whatnot to stay in communication with Winterfell, but there wasn't anyone on that side who could have sent a message saying 'Hey, watch out for the dragon-slaying siege weapons'?

Post by **Zarathustra** » Tue May 07, 2019 10:36 pm

Sorus wrote:They must also have ravens and whatnot to stay in communication with Winterfell, but there wasn't anyone on that side who could have sent a message saying 'Hey, watch out for the dragon-slaying siege weapons'?

Good point. And for that matter, Daeneryes should have known about this weapon since they used it last season. She's already lost one dragon prior to this (granted, to the Night King, not ballista), so you'd think she'd be more careful.

Wayfriend wrote:Does anyone think Drogon could take out the King's Landing dragon-slayer ballista if he came straight down from above?

Another good point. And even if they could tilt the ballista straight up, it has a maximum range. Daenerys could just have the dragon pick up large stones and drop them on the ships from high up. Dragons are more than fire, they are aerial assault. It's disappointing how little strategy is being considered.

Post by **Sorus** » Wed May 08, 2019 1:42 am

I am quite certain that Varys still has eyes and ears in King's Landing - plot hole, or is he deliberately withholding information?

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed May 08, 2019 4:03 am

Ooooh Sorus

... that IS a terrifying thought. Danny was NOT impressed to have him on team dragon

oh knowing GOTs its a very credible plot twist .. and I cant discuss anything further as Im away from home and wont get to see any GOTs till 20 May.

I still havent seen the Monday gone episode so must avert my eyes from any other genius positing. Godamnit .. I opened this thread by habit

But enjoy fellow GOT fans. Ill see you on 21 May.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Wed May 08, 2019 12:28 pm

Here's an interesting video re: the symbolism between the Starks and the direwolves.

https://youtu.be/nZ1-N8WFzOs

Post by **lucimay** » Wed May 08, 2019 2:20 pm

dlbpharmd wrote:Here's an interesting video re: the symbolism between the Starks and the direwolves.

https://youtu.be/nZ1-N8WFzOs

OHHHHHHHH!!! yeah!!!! of course! duh!!!

I totally hadn't thought about that. excellent explanation. makes total sense. thanks for posting that!

Post by **Sorus** » Wed May 08, 2019 10:11 pm

That was interesting. But I'm still disappointed in Jon. Ghost stayed by his side when Jon was dead. Bare minimum, he deserved a proper farewell, inner turmoil be damned.

All in all, I'm surprised there hasn't been more backstabbing. A lot of people who really didn't like one another came together to fight the undead, and I'm surprised the alliances have held this long.

Cersei wants to see the city burn. She's trying to provoke them. Is there a deeper trap, or is it a case of if I can't have it, no one can?

Cersei wrote:"Keep the gates open. If she wants to take the castle, she'll have to murder thousands of innocent people first."

Speculation. The Keep is booby-trapped with wildfire. Jaime finds out. Jaime confronts her. Some variation of her telling him that he can't kill her because she's carrying his baby. Some variation of Euron overhearing and going 'Wait, what?' Fighting and whatnot.

I can't figure out who Arya's target is. Hopefully not someone too obvious. Like Cersei. Is she acting on something Bran revealed? Bran could have been more useful throughout all of this.

Post by **Avatar** » Fri May 10, 2019 5:02 am

Sorus wrote:...And not even a hug or a pat on the head goodbye? He lost an ear fighting zombies for you, Jon. He deserves better...

Haha, that was the GF's reaction as well...even down to the ear.

I agree with WF that Jaime, being somewhat redeemed, is off to either kill Cersei or stop her some other way. He didn't invite Brienne because he doesn't expect to survive.

(And yes, I assume Arya is off after Cersei too.)

(And yes, if Cersei is so bad, a few of those anti-dragon ballistae loosed at the "negotiating" party would have taken care of all her problems. Danerys and Tyrion and all of them were well in range.)

Expect next episode to be the fight with Cersei, and last one to be fight between Danerys and Jon. (Yes, Varys will probably out Jon to force the issue.)

--A

Post by **Sorus** » Fri May 10, 2019 10:17 pm

Avatar wrote:
(And yes, if Cersei is so bad, a few of those anti-dragon ballistae loosed at the "negotiating" party would have taken care of all her problems. Danerys and Tyrion and all of them were well in range.)

Let's underestimate Cersei seems to be the theme for this season. At this point, I am hoping she is gearing up for something horrific, because that would be better than an anticlimactic ending.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Mon May 13, 2019 2:58 am

That was absolutely devastating - of course, we all saw it coming.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Mon May 13, 2019 3:02 am

I called it, way back in June 2016:

dlbpharmd wrote: 2. Does anyone else get the feeling that Daenerys may turn out to be the uber villain of this show?

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Mon May 13, 2019 8:49 am

I didn't quite expect it to go down like that. Daenerys destroying the entire city after they surrendered, and even destroying the Red Keep, tearing down everything she's been trying to win since the beginning... It does make sense for her, though, and I expect this is the part of the episode that's closest to the original plot Martin had in mind.

As good as the scenes with Arya moving through the city were, this episode was still a huge waste of her character. They could have used anyone for the "on the ground" perspective. What's the point of her being a faceless assassin if she never even tries to do anything with it? Does anyone think it actually makes sense that her and Clegane just walk right into the Red Keep making no attempt to disguise themselves? She would've done it differently if the show cared at all about who she was rather than just getting to have that one scene where the Hound tells her to go.

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon May 13, 2019 2:14 pm

Sorus wrote:At this point, I am hoping she is gearing up for something horrific, because that would be better than an anticlimactic ending.

Or, you know ... we can go the other way.

Once again, I found myself enjoying what I watched but wishing for something more substantial. Cersei literally just stood there and did nothing while it all came down. The scorpions turned out to be nothingburgers. Jaime had no surprises left. Arya just had rocks fall on her. The Cleganebowl had no surprises.

The show was really only about Daenerys flipping sides.

Now, I would speculate on what is going on in Daenerys's head, but I have always overthought and overestimated the story this year, so it's pointless.

What I speculate is this: "I don't have love here, I only have fear." As soon as King's Landing fell, the titular Game, for Daenerys, was now Daenerys vs. Jon. I think Daenerys believes that saving the people (Tyrion's concern) only leads to more Love for Jon, while destroying everything leads to more Fear for her. She's playing for the throne.

The actuality will certainly be something far more bleh than that.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Mon May 13, 2019 3:59 pm

I agree with many points here, general disappointment. Dany's turn did not have enough build up. It was spectacular and horrifying to watch, but it wasn't earned. I can see where she *might* have been pushed to such extreme, if the writing had been better. But it's just not there on the screen. It's entirely out of character for her, given what we know. She is used to going places where they don't love her, and earning their love/respect. She could have done the same thing here. The people of King's Landing don't love Jon, and they have no sense of the danger of the Night King from which he saved them. She had just liberated them from Cersei, for whom they also had no love. She still had the loyalty of Tyrion, Jon, and all her Unsullied. The Red Keep could have been hers. But instead, she threw it away in a temper tantrum. It makes no sense. If, instead of looking at the Red Keep and getting pissed that it had been taken from her all these years, she had looked a Jon in the street and realized he was going to be the one to take it from her--this man who doesn't love her anymore (as a lover)--then it might have made a tad more sense. But this was just a mess.

I also agree that the ballistas were nothingburgers. The last dragon was killed SO easily, but this remaining dragon has an endless supply of luck and fire (maybe the series should be renamed . . .

). And after amassing all her armies for years, it seemed all she ever really needed was one dragon after all.

Clegane Bowl was a pointless and anticlimactic as we all suspected it would be. How could it not after all this build up? If the Hound had realized that the only way to kill his brother was fire, and willingly plunged into flames with him at the end--instead of merely falling accidentally into flames--then it would have been the perfect resolution of his character: defeating this fear that his brother put into him. Instead, it was merely revenge. Pointless. (The fact that he acknowledged this with Arya wins him no bonus points.)

Cersei was useless, pointless. She had no surprises, either. We didn't underestimate her after all.

It didn't bother me that Jaime had no surprises left, since I'd already realized that he showed his true colors with Brienne. All that ever mattered to him was Cersei and, when it came down to an existential threat, survival. Once that was gone, back to Cersei. I actually like this resolution of his character. The twist--the surprise--was that his "redemption" wasn't real. So having no surprises was the surprise.

I loved the last scene with Tyrion and Jaime. Very well done. Ditto Vary's end. And I liked that the Lannister twins ended with the Red Keep coming down on top of them.

Instead of killing Cersei, Arya may end up killing Dany, for Jon, if he has trouble doing it himself. I suppose there's no hope for the happy ending of the two of them together.

[Edit: maybe Martin gave HBO a decoy outline for the last season, so that in the end, his books would be better than the show!]

Post by **aTOMiC** » Mon May 13, 2019 4:53 pm

Zarathustra wrote:
The last dragon was killed SO easily, but this remaining dragon has an endless supply of luck and fire (maybe the series should be renamed . . . ). And after amassing all her armies for years, it seemed all she ever really needed was one dragon after all.

Not really disagreeing however...

To be fair the first two Dragon kills were via ambush tactics.
This last encounter was almost completely on Dany's terms so I have no issue. If anything, with 3 dragons the job would have taken much less time but the loss of her two "children" played a role in her motivations so it was necessary.

Also it may be important to the conclusion that Jon no longer has a Dragon of his own.

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon May 13, 2019 5:05 pm

In [i]A Feast for Crows[/i], George RR Martin wrote:"Yo, I got a dragon, it's right here," said Jon Snow, grabbing his crotch.

Sorry, but that's what he wrote.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Mon May 13, 2019 6:14 pm

aTOMiC wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
The last dragon was killed SO easily, but this remaining dragon has an endless supply of luck and fire (maybe the series should be renamed . . . ). And after amassing all her armies for years, it seemed all she ever really needed was one dragon after all.

Not really disagreeing however...

To be fair the first two Dragon kills were via ambush tactics.
This last encounter was almost completely on Dany's terms so I have no issue. If anything, with 3 dragons the job would have taken much less time but the loss of her two "children" played a role in her motivations so it was necessary.

Also it may be important to the conclusion that Jon no longer has a Dragon of his own.

Hmm . . . I supposed. It might also make a difference when a dragon has a rider, a human who is intelligent enough to anticipate attacks from technological weapons. I know dragons are smart, but they still seem to need guidance.

Why did they shorten this season, again? I forgot. It certainly could have used more episodes to develop the characters. After spending some time online reading others' reactions today, it seems that we're not alone in our disappointment. One article pointed out that Martin was good at surprise endings that seemed inevitable afterwards, but the show's producers/writers seem to think that shock value is good enough. They purposely withhold information to make it more shocking, including cutting scenes that would have made some of the turns more believable, for the sake of surprising the viewers. I really don't think they know what they're doing, and without Martin's books, they never would have made such a great series on their own. (Maybe that point is obvious.)

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

A Game of Thrones