Kevin's Watch

I’m losing a game
I don’t know how to play and
No-one can teach me

I sit alone here
With my apathy and shame
And I barely move.

Silence surrounds me.
My small movements declare me
While I wish to hide.

To call existence
A victory- such are my
Pitiful tactics.

Rewarding myself
And keeping my back turned as
Another piece falls.

He joins the pile
The sad heap of detritus
Cluttered about me.

These broken trophies
For my faceless opponent
Force me to concede.

Another point his,
That turn passes by, while I
Still don’t know the rules.

Ah Cambo.
Let the outer pieces fall where they may.
And look within for your own connection to The Source of All.
Look within.

Whether you choose to seek peace within, or decide this is all there is, there is too much beauty both within and without to ignore.

Let the pieces fall where they may, and worry not about the rules.
Then forge ahead lightened of their load.
Knowing you are Loved by many who comprise the One.

Good stuff, Cambo.

Well, well, well, Menolly! I post a problem, you post the solution. I'm kinda screwed now. How am I supposed to have a satisfying poetic wallow in good conscience?

In all seriousness, Love and Unity are the answers I find to barrenness and isolation. Letting go of the pieces, the rules and my opponent is the only way to win this game.

Menolly wrote:there is too much beauty both within and without to ignore.

There certainly is. It's important to say, however, that in states as the one described above, ignoring the beauty isn't what one does. It simply disappears from sight. Once lost from view, it is difficult to find again.

That's when my many loves come in. The beauty is so much easier to see in them than in myself. From their example, I find it within me, then I'm lead back to the Source.

Bright Eyes wrote:But I found in a song
And the people I've loved
They will lift me up out of darkness

aliantha wrote:Good stuff, Cambo.

Thanks, Ali!

Cambo wrote:

Menolly wrote:there is too much beauty both within and without to ignore.

There certainly is. It's important to say, however, that in states as the one described above, ignoring the beauty isn't what one does. It simply disappears from sight. Once lost from view, it is difficult to find again.

That's when my many loves come in. The beauty is so much easier to see in them than in myself. From their example, I find it within me, then I'm lead back to the Source.

Bright Eyes wrote:But I found in a song
And the people I've loved
They will lift me up out of darkness

Cambo and I continued our conversation on messenger, but he and I agree perhaps others may benefit from seeing what we discussed. So, with his permission, as he has gone to sleep and can not actively post in response on the thread for now, here is our conversation:

Menolly says
is your reply finished?
Cambo says
Yep, just then.
Up now
Menolly says
coolness
Cambo says
Read it?
Menolly says
I did
uncertain how to reply
I want to reiterate that I feel you need to learn to find within yourself that beauty and self-love, without looking towards others for it first
but I also admit I have not been following the Depression thread, so these instinctive thoughts of mine may be way off base
Cambo says
Absolutely I need to find it within myself
It's just that, sometimes I look and it doesn't seem to be there
The love of others teaches me (again and again) where to look, and what to look for
Bright Eyes also say, in a different song "And they will know how I love them; I am nothing without their love"
Anyway, that's true in a way. Without my loved ones, I'd be completely lost
Menolly says
that is all well and good
but Hillel says:
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" ~Pirkei Avot 1:14
find yourself
our loved ones are our anchor
but we are the engine and tiller of our course
Cambo says
Nice imagery.
Again, I don't disagree
I'd be the last person to suggest allowing others to steer one's course

And with that, we said goodnight.
We have much more to discuss regarding self-conception and self-love. I doubt we will leave it there.

Cambo's blue haiku
(Blue as in sad, not risqué)
Is a real downer

Good thing Menolly
Omnipresent optimist
Chose to intervene

Not just counter-post
But resort to Messenger
To chat directly

Glad he feels better
(Damn persistent depression...)
Thank you, Ms. Sunshine!

Always good to hear
From our resident haiku
Master, DPJ

Ms Sunshine is indeed adept at sharing warmth. However, honesty compells me to point out that last night was no "dark night of the soul;" the poem is based on genuine experience, but not one I am going through at the present, thankfully. Which is not to say that the Optimist ever fails to brighten one's day .

Regarding our discussion, Menolly:

I once said to a friend of my own going through such a time, that the most valuable gift we can give each other is to correct illusions about our Self. That's the good I see in looking to others while depressed; seeing that you are loved directly contradicts the illusions about yourself the illness attempts to make you believe. Knowing you are loved, and valuing the opinion of your loved ones, you realise they must have reasons for loving you. That is the appropriate time to "look within." Searching for what merits the love of others, I re-discover my self-worth, and love myself for the same reasons.

The only answer I have to that is what seems to have become my personal mantra:
Panentheism.

You are loved "directly," whether that involves others or not. The search within for our own connection to whence we came and to whence we journey is not easy, but the connection, whatever it means to each individual, is always there. Even in the blackest darkness of our most dire illusions about ourselves, that tiny spark of Love, whether Divine or natural or simply innate, is buried deep within, but is always there.

I believe that although the reason for you, for each of us, to be here, to exist, may never be answered to one's satisfaction in this realm, we each will come to peace with it in our own way in time. Whether in this life, or via a totally different realm of existence, each soul will find its purpose, its reunification with its Source. And then All shall be known. The Joy and the Despair. The Glory and the Deprivation. The Love. The Love. The Love...

It is all within. Search for it there. Find it.
Then call upon it at will.

True friends will always be there for you.
Your truest friend is, without a doubt, oneself.

Like! your new title...
But "self" is not always "friend"
Though it should be so

You may know someone
Who endlessly doubts herself
And needs a friend's help

Preach, Menolly, preach!
Witness to The All's power
Just...do heal thyself

Doubt of oneself is not the darkness of depression, DPJ. Even within self-doubt, somewhere is that tiny spark. And it is still found buried deep within depression. Loved ones will help. Acceptance and love of oneself helps the most.

That is beautifully written, Cambo. I have no great advice for you these days, except, as I do, put one foot in front of the other and keep going.....

there is also love in the world.....

There is hope, and it is not within us - it is external to us. If our only resources are within our selves, then there is good reason for depression.

Despair is a vice, the opposing virtue of which is hope. I commend to you the basis of that hope in the Close thread kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20917

Please understand that I do so with best wishes for swift escape from depression and despair! (Take it from one extremely prone to those things, and having found the hope to battle them with.)

That is my 'brutally honest criticism'. Hope it doesn't seem too brutal!

Menolly wrote:Doubt of oneself is not the darkness of depression, DPJ. Even within self-doubt, somewhere is that tiny spark. And it is still found buried deep within depression. Loved ones will help. Acceptance and love of oneself helps the most.

Truth. Though personally I have found the two inextricable from each other. Love of others and love of self- was a time I was barely capable of the former, and completely lacking in the latter. Now I find them intertwined, co-dependent, and the capacity to experience and express grow alongside each other. "I am nothing without their love." Perhaps this should not be true. On some levels, I don't believe it is. The beauty within, both of my ego-self and the Greater Self, does not rely on my relationships with others. When it comes to finding that Source, I alone do not suffice. For this, I owe everything to my loves.

Dread Poet Jethro wrote:Like! your new title...
But "self" is not always "friend"
Though it should be so

Also truth- but the picture is incomplete without noting that Self, Greater Self, Source, All (select preferred moniker) is always friend. Always Love. Access to that is the issue, which is where the value of Menolly's advice to "look within" rings true- looking elsewhere for the All makes no sense to me.

Which brings me to Rus I'm going to start with this:

Rusmeister wrote:That is my 'brutally honest criticism'. Hope it doesn't seem too brutal!

Not brutal at all, Rus. You are sharing your answers, as you have found them, in the hope that I will find the same answers, and gain from them what you have gained. I thank you for that.

Nevertheless, in this case you are terribly misguided.

Rusmeister wrote:There is hope, and it is not within us - it is external to us. If our only resources are within our selves, then there is good reason for depression.

Despair is a vice, the opposing virtue of which is hope. I commend to you the basis of that hope in the Close thread kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20917

My turn for brutal honesty: these things I will never believe. Neither that there is no hope within us, or that there is hope in Christ. Nor in a deity external to my Self. I see myself as One with God. There are no answers to despair that don't exist within me. I may require guidance or prompting to discover them; but within is where they are to be found.

Rusmeister wrote:Please understand that I do so with best wishes for swift escape from depression and despair! (Take it from one extremely prone to those things, and having found the hope to battle them with.)

This I understand. Please also understand that I have my own idea of where to find hope. I'm know you believe that my source of hope is groundless, thus ultimately a source of despair. If you are correct, then I will only discover this after my death. In life, I will fight my battle on my own terms.

This has sparked a fascinating discussion, guys. To follow Lorin's example, and draw on the author who brought us all here:

King Joyse wrote:Oh, you please me! You all please me!

Cambo wrote:

Menolly wrote:Doubt of oneself is not the darkness of depression, DPJ. Even within self-doubt, somewhere is that tiny spark. And it is still found buried deep within depression. Loved ones will help. Acceptance and love of oneself helps the most.

Truth. Though personally I have found the two inextricable from each other. Love of others and love of self- was a time I was barely capable of the former, and completely lacking in the latter. Now I find them intertwined, co-dependent, and the capacity to experience and express grow alongside each other. "I am nothing without their love." Perhaps this should not be true. On some levels, I don't believe it is. The beauty within, both of my ego-self and the Greater Self, does not rely on my relationships with others. When it comes to finding that Source, I alone do not suffice. For this, I owe everything to my loves.

Dread Poet Jethro wrote:Like! your new title...
But "self" is not always "friend"
Though it should be so

Also truth- but the picture is incomplete without noting that Self, Greater Self, Source, All (select preferred moniker) is always friend. Always Love. Access to that is the issue, which is where the value of Menolly's advice to "look within" rings true- looking elsewhere for the All makes no sense to me.

Which brings me to Rus I'm going to start with this:

Rusmeister wrote:That is my 'brutally honest criticism'. Hope it doesn't seem too brutal!

Not brutal at all, Rus. You are sharing your answers, as you have found them, in the hope that I will find the same answers, and gain from them what you have gained. I thank you for that.

Nevertheless, in this case you are terribly misguided.

Rusmeister wrote:There is hope, and it is not within us - it is external to us. If our only resources are within our selves, then there is good reason for depression.

Despair is a vice, the opposing virtue of which is hope. I commend to you the basis of that hope in the Close thread kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20917

My turn for brutal honesty: these things I will never believe. Neither that there is no hope within us, or that there is hope in Christ. Nor in a deity external to my Self. I see myself as One with God. There are no answers to despair that don't exist within me. I may require guidance or prompting to discover them; but within is where they are to be found.

Rusmeister wrote:Please understand that I do so with best wishes for swift escape from depression and despair! (Take it from one extremely prone to those things, and having found the hope to battle them with.)

This I understand. Please also understand that I have my own idea of where to find hope. I'm know you believe that my source of hope is groundless, thus ultimately a source of despair. If you are correct, then I will only discover this after my death. In life, I will fight my battle on my own terms.

This has sparked a fascinating discussion, guys. To follow Lorin's example, and draw on the author who brought us all here:

King Joyse wrote:Oh, you please me! You all please me!

Thank you, Cambo,
I don't think I have much to say to most of your comments.

The one on a universal negation of answers that are not within you, though, I think can be refuted on reasonable grounds. What a small universe we must inhabit, if the only answers in it are to be found within our extremely limited selves! A baby does not have the English language in them. It must be put into them. Since that's what I do for a living, I think I can say that with some authority. It MUST be possible that there are answers outside of us, a great many of which we must necessarily know nothing about. So our choice of the acceptance of an answer is ultimately a matter of faith; on this I certainly agree with you. However, if the answers cannot be found outside of us, most of us are truly doomed, except for that lucky gnostic minority that can actually find them. It is a fact that the greater portion of humanity finds the answers outside of themselves.

Not a universal negation of external answers, Rus. I don't expect to learn Latin through introspection.

Cambo wrote:There are no answers to despair that don't exist within me.

On matters of depression, despair, hope, love...those answers I can find by looking within.

Cambo wrote:Not a universal negation of external answers, Rus. I don't expect to learn Latin through introspection.

Cambo wrote:There are no answers to despair that don't exist within me.

On matters of depression, despair, hope, love...those answers I can find by looking within.

But whether they will be the answers that correctly correspond to what is objectively true about human nature (regardless of what you may perceive) is another question.

rusmeister wrote:

Cambo wrote:Not a universal negation of external answers, Rus. I don't expect to learn Latin through introspection.

Cambo wrote:There are no answers to despair that don't exist within me.

On matters of depression, despair, hope, love...those answers I can find by looking within.

But whether they will be the answers that correctly correspond to what is objectively true about human nature (regardless of what you may perceive) is another question.

See, with my beliefs, no-one needs to square how they cope with questions of depression, love and hope with objectivity. I don't believe Christianity to be objectively true. I'd never try to sway you from Orthodoxy (even if I thought I could), as you have vouched that it has answered your struggles against despair. Doesn't matter to me that you'll spend the rest of your life believing something I don't think is true.

I'm aware the reverse matters to you though. Concepts of an eternal afterlife really make the game matter, don't they? I refer you back upthread.

Cambo wrote:I know you believe that my source of hope is groundless, thus ultimately a source of despair. If you are correct, then I will only discover this after my death. In life, I will fight my battle on my own terms.

The answers I have found (so far) appear to work far, far better than any Good News from Christianity has. If the Good News is true, then I'm screwed, and my answers were only a temporary illusion. I'm prepared to wait and see, and take what hope I can claim in this life.

Cambo wrote: I'm prepared to wait and see, and take what hope I can claim in this life.

I hear you.

Cambo wrote:Another point his,
That turn passes by, while I
Still don’t know the rules.

I -totally- get this. That's a horrible state to see yourself in.

Well, I was at a friend's house when I read this thread, and then I drove home (maybe about a 45 min drive) late at night. It was one of my most exhausted conditions I've driven in - one of the few times I'd say I was "too tired to be a truly safe driver" - I think I've only done that 2 or 3 times total.

I was still thinking about this thread, & I built a metaphor or an analogy in my head. The connections will probably be obvious to you:

I was driving forward; it was so monotonous, I was constantly on the verge of falling asleep.
I saw myself crossing the yellow lines as I crossed them - scary.
I felt myself falling asleep repeatedly; yet knew I couldn't afford it.
My mind often imagined that the large semi-trailer truck in front of me was... something different... or was not real; but that didn't change anything; it was.
Worst of all, I felt like if I fell asleep it was beyond my control. But yet... it had to somehow be (just barely) within my control...
And because of that, if I were to crash the car into something because of my failure to stay alert... I would be the one responsible for the harm caused to myself and my two small children.
It seemed ridiculously foolish to just pull off to the side of the road and hope that somehow I'd get less tired if I walked around. That would just put off driving home, and then I'd be ...MORE tired, right?
Options of seeking help? You don't just pull into some random person's driveway and wake them up at 11pm and ask for help... and I didn't have any friends who lived down there. Could I just pull in to a restaurant or shop for a few minutes? No. they were all closed. Who would be there to help?

(Just bear in mind that the connections I made in the metaphor may not be the exact ones you will think of when you read it...)