Kevin's Watch

In The power that Preserves, Mhoram says to Thomas "Oh Covenant, you are in hell. Your world is a hell". Do you agree? And if you were a person of the Land, and got took to this world; would you indeed think that this world is hell? I would

I think what you haveto rememberis that TC wasin a bad state when mhoram said this, infact he was almost dead...

I don't think the people of theland would find our world a "hell" as such, but definantly their love for all things natural would mean our cities would disgust them...

i disagree with you Hierachy. Because look what we have in this world, Raping and killing of little children, Murderers, people who harm others for pleasure. Yeah, you get all that in the Land, but it's not humans that do it.

Darth Revan:

i disagree with you Hierachy. Because look what we have in this world, Raping and killing of little children, Murderers, people who harm others for pleasure. Yeah, you get all that in the Land, but it's not humans that do it.

I'm sure the Ramen didn't find Pietten a good person to pal around with.

And a person from Sunder's time would probably find our world to be
heaven compared to the Land.

The people of Mhoram's time have advantages that we don't. They
can call forth the power to heat their homes and cook their food without
destroying wood or stone. They have Linden's health sense which tells
them when they can trust someone or something with a glance.

On the other hand, I do think the people of the Land might be impressed
with our ability to surgically attach a severed limb or do a heart transplant.
They might be amazed at our ability to soar through the skies or under the
oceans. They might be astonished at our ability to speak to each other
over astonishing distances.

I think that the people of the Land can easily relate all of the bad things that happen to some action of foul, or Drool, or some other badness like the Ur-Viles - they have something to point the finger at when bad things happen. This world - well, people do bad things just because they are bad people, not because some avatar of despite tells them to. That's why this World is hell.

Corruption:

I think that the people of the Land can easily relate all of the bad things that happen to some action of foul, or Drool, or some other badness like the Ur-Viles - they have something to point the finger at when bad things happen. This world - well, people do bad things just because they are bad people, not because some avatar of despite tells them to. That's why this World is hell.

To quote Thomas Covenant, "It's not that easy."

People do bad things for a number of different reasons ranging from
mental illness to having differing idealogies to being simply evil people.

The Land is a dream-- Covenant's, Donaldson's, perhaps even our own,
but a dream can work far better than any real world ever could.

Who says this world isn't Hell anyway? Reminds me of a scene from the Watchmen comic book. A character is seen carrying a sign that says The World Will End Tomorrow. Two days later, a guy says to him, "Hey, I notice the world didn't end yesterday." The sign carrier replies, "Are you sure?"

But I think it depends on which inhabitant of the Land was transported to here. The Haruchai wouldn't even blink at the differences, if they noticed them at all. The Giants would be dismayed, but would eventually find joy. But I suspect the typical Stonedowner or Woodhelvennin would be quite lost.

Yeah in comparison to the Land, ours would seem that way; and that's Mhoram's opinion. I think our world is in that regard because it's not so easy to identify evil as opposed to evil being apparent in the Land.

on the other hand, the land has a concentrated evil which could easily turn it into a hell

I suppose from a certain perspective one could view our world as a hell. Some religions do. I personally can't view life on earth from such a negative direction. For now anyway.

There is also love in the world.
And great joy and great laughter.
Have you ever had a moment where you experienced so much beauty you knew it would live forever in your soul?
The first time I held my children after they were born...a glorious sunset from atop a dune over Lake Michigan...the autumn leaves on the seashore in Maine...sunrise over the Grand Canyon...the laughter of children...
I have faced my share of troubles and violence and unhappiness in this life, in this world, and might have to face them again someday. But I know that this world is a place of love and beauty...and that will sustain me whatever might happen...

There are also people who live right in Michigan who will kill you for the money in your wallet. I recall reading a story in Michigan where a guy raped a 93 yr old woman. I once had a customer for the business I worked for who beat & stole his grand mother's social security checks. I've read of people killing each other over a simple insult, a can of beer, or the plot of a movie. I myself have seen my share of violence. I've known assassins who would kill anyone for $3-4,000. A past girlfriend of mine had her daughter's father arrested for raping the child who was 2 at the time. I've dated women who had a doctor lance, scoop, and vacuum out their unborn children. If someone does something wrong we put them in a place where they will be anally raped, this is regardless of whether they were sentenced for a violent act, drugs, or manipulating paperwork. If you make enough money, you don't have to go to prison; but if you are poor you will have the maximum sentence imposed on you. It's okay to drink alcohol which causes fights, drunk-driving accidents, and early death by organ destruction, but don't smoke pot which makes you mellow and has no comparable health risk.

You can freely speak you mind in America, but don't call anyone a name that attacks their beliefs, status, orientation, person, and don't burn a flag or talk about it, because you'll be scorned for being different, hunted, or imprisoned. Don't disagree with people because they will hate you for having your own independent thought. Don't have original thought. Don't think out of the box. Enjoy sports which don't represent your locality in any way shape or form, but rather represent just another way to steal your money from you and give it to overpaid people who exploit themselves for money just as women do in scantily clad sex sales. Vote to show your patriotism for a politician who will tell you one thing & do another just like the guy he's running against. Believe in nothing because believing in God is for the silly and uneducated. Don't take my guns away but make my streets safer. Killerbees were a terrible mistake, but here have a genetically altered piece of fruit, it's the new orangatoe. Don't eat red meat. Recycle. Buy hybrid cars. Enjoy those popups. Wait in line. Fill out this form. You make too much to help & not enough to pay for it, now go wait in this other line and fill out this other form. Go to this institution to learn that our forefathers were perfect saints and evolution is the utter truth; and above all question nothing.

Yeah. This place is beautiful.

Wow what a grim post by none?.....I think we have to rememeber what the giants often said to TC...joy is not in the telling of the tale but in the ears that hear it.Our world could be much more lawless than it is.....as the dutchess pointed out there is beauty here if you choose to see it.I left my place of work not long ago and as I walked in a breeze a little warmer then it should have been for the time of year I watched a full moon.....beautifully colored red and I thought wow it's great to be alive to see such a sight.
I think in the land good and evil were so seperated and personified that they are easily identified and so all the earth power ,health sense,etc can be seen like heaven....who wouldn't want to be able to judge a person's character just be looking at them and who wouldn't want to blame all the world's evil and woes on one person,Foul in this case, and his servants.That way everything is cut and dry.....was TC in hell.....his situation was but Mhoram also said there must be much good in our world for one man to be able to sacrifce a whole land for the sake of one little girl.
I'm reminded of a quote that James T Kirk once twisted around as he spoke to Spoke his best friend " the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many or the few "......such is the nature of good....willing sacrifice....the help another

Wonderer wrote: I'm reminded of a quote that James T Kirk once twisted around as he spoke to Spoke his best friend " the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many or the few "......such is the nature of good....willing sacrifice....the help another

I'm reminded of a quote that James T Kirk once said during the movie in which the vulcan shaman could remove a person's innermost pain. He said, "No, it's part of me I won't give up my pain! It's me! It's part of who I am!"

I think that every one of us has his or her own dark secrets. Some of us greater, larger, or deeper than others, but we all have them. This is what reflects our free choice to be evil, selfish, or otherwise serving a purpose of which no good is created.

We all fail in our individual ways.

The thing that surprises me so very much is that so few of us are willing to admit our despair that we cling to illusions and expect terrible consequences to any who should be caught by the law of the land, though we ourselves are each and everyone of us dispecable after his or her own fashion. In the end, everything we do is self-serving, if even we help our very children... for we would not so help even a neighbor's child in the same way. We are only for ourselves in our madnesses.

Only the goodness that remains is worth keeping. All the rest is clutter, pink noise, cannon fodder of the zen ka, ringing the bell in the abyss as if it mattered.

Only goodness comes from the creator. Thomas Covenant could not go to the land except by the choice the creator made. It was not Lord Foul's doing. He was not on the outside when Covenant gave the old man permission to take anything from him and gave him his very ring, his last personal lifeline to his very will to continue his wretched life.

Think on the choices that were made before anything ever began and dismay at the possibilities given and taken. It was not a whim. It was a decision based on exacting intelligence. This was the chessmove that opened the 2nd part of the game. The first part had already been played and the pawns had been dispatched and Kevin's knight piece had been sacrificed long ago. The queen in this game, the highest power in the game was never foul. He was the enemy king piece, the ravers his queen. The white queen was the white gold wielder, able to move in every way and as he chose no way at all. A paradox, a question. The chessgame really only began when a randomizing strangeness was introduced; a person out of flavor from the rest, who did not stand out as good and nonetheless did good. A man of honor who held a different view from the many cliques of society. In other words, never one of you. And yes, most likely never me either. But still, never one of you. Your commonness precludes your being chosen from the start.

I think Zephalephelah makes a good point about Thomas Covenant being the outsider. Do we really understand emotionally what it means to be outcast the way Covenant was? Yes, we can intellectualize about his situation when we read the books, but it's all too easy to turn around and poo-poo his "unbelief". Covenant got the job done because he was the ultimate outsider. By definition, he could not be "one of us". His bitterness made him strong, yet the very strength of his individualism meant he could never belong. Could you imagine a grim man like Covenant logging onto kevinswatch to share nice thoughts? Well, if he were to, his post might, oddly enough, resemble Zephalephelah's diatribe on the malicious things people do to each other in this world. In the end, perhaps it takes people like Covenant (and Zephalephelah?) to save our behinds because we're too soft and weak ourselves.

Sorry if I'm off-topic. The crazy Canuck exits stage left...

Zephalephelah wrote:There are also people who live right in Michigan who will kill you for the money in your wallet. I recall reading a story in Michigan where a guy raped a 93 yr old woman. I once had a customer for the business I worked for who beat & stole his grand mother's social security checks. I've read of people killing each other over a simple insult, a can of beer, or the plot of a movie. I myself have seen my share of violence. I've known assassins who would kill anyone for $3-4,000. A past girlfriend of mine had her daughter's father arrested for raping the child who was 2 at the time. I've dated women who had a doctor lance, scoop, and vacuum out their unborn children. If someone does something wrong we put them in a place where they will be anally raped, this is regardless of whether they were sentenced for a violent act, drugs, or manipulating paperwork. If you make enough money, you don't have to go to prison; but if you are poor you will have the maximum sentence imposed on you. It's okay to drink alcohol which causes fights, drunk-driving accidents, and early death by organ destruction, but don't smoke pot which makes you mellow and has no comparable health risk.

You can freely speak you mind in America, but don't call anyone a name that attacks their beliefs, status, orientation, person, and don't burn a flag or talk about it, because you'll be scorned for being different, hunted, or imprisoned. Don't disagree with people because they will hate you for having your own independent thought. Don't have original thought. Don't think out of the box. Enjoy sports which don't represent your locality in any way shape or form, but rather represent just another way to steal your money from you and give it to overpaid people who exploit themselves for money just as women do in scantily clad sex sales. Vote to show your patriotism for a politician who will tell you one thing & do another just like the guy he's running against. Believe in nothing because believing in God is for the silly and uneducated. Don't take my guns away but make my streets safer. Killerbees were a terrible mistake, but here have a genetically altered piece of fruit, it's the new orangatoe. Don't eat red meat. Recycle. Buy hybrid cars. Enjoy those popups. Wait in line. Fill out this form. You make too much to help & not enough to pay for it, now go wait in this other line and fill out this other form. Go to this institution to learn that our forefathers were perfect saints and evolution is the utter truth; and above all question nothing.

Yeah. This place is beautiful.

WOW! . Got to agree with you there Zep.

Zephalephelah wrote:In the end, everything we do is self-serving, if even we help our very children... for we would not so help even a neighbor's child in the same way. We are only for ourselves in our madnesses.

I agree with you that most things we do are self-serving, but as to regards about mothers helping their children, I don't agree. A mothers instinct to protect her child is compulsory, not as selfish as you make out.

I agree with you, Zephalephelah (except about the God bit). It's hard not to... but the view you expressed is, at most, one half of the truth.

Anyone who cared to could give you an equal number of situations demonstrating 'goodness' that could balance the equation.

It's wrong to think that the world is just a hell. It's a heaven too. It depends on what you choose to look at and to whom you choose to listen.

In Britain the media are concerned only with the negative view of things. We have terrorists, racial hatred, unchecked immigration, increasing use of gun violence, etc. The scum is out there, no mistake, but it's not all there is.

It only takes one ray of sunlight shining through a cloudy sky to make it beautiful.

Pete.

"because believing in God is for the silly and uneducated" How true! Thomas Covenant's situation on Earth places him in his own personal hell both internally and externally eschewing the "scenery".

He has never seen such beauty as my GodForsaken prison these pitiful creatures call the Land. I will make sure this groveler spreads that hell here and Damms it! He cannot EVEN hope!