Regret

[Worm of Despite]

Guilt can be a powerful thing, as SRD said... As well as a crushing thing. A long time ago, when I was 17, I betrayed a friend's trust. The circumstances are a bit unique but the emotions and the one I hurt were real, so it matters little. The condensed version: in a video game, Ultima Online, for some anarchist reason I logged onto another person's account and took their gold and some of their items. Now; this person was a leader and a respected person in that game (a medieval game where other people play together, paying by month; similar to World of Warcraft).

He trusted me to do some duties on his account, such as play for him when he was gone. I don't know why I did it. Plenty of underlying reasons, maybe: some kind of lashing out because I'd been made fun of at school all my life; the kid with the glasses, overweight, etc. Still; that's no excuse.

And it haunts me to this day, nearly 10 years later. And I've sent him three messages in that intervening time, asking for forgiveness, but no reply. I doubt even his forgiveness would allay the crushing pain I sometimes feel. Sometimes it's so hard I feel like I'll never breathe again; that I'm numb everywhere. Some days are totally fine. I know I must be a good person for it to hurt me so much.

So betrayal. If this person does not forgive me of one of the gravest sins, then what? I suppose it's my punishment to carry that weight the rest of my life. I just wish there was some other way to see it; some way to just move on and feel like a good person like everyone else. Because other than that I think I’ve done well.

Not sure what I'm asking for; or why I posted. But felt like I needed to.

So many things have gone right in my life, don't get me wrong. And I'm very enthusiastic and think plenty of great things are ahead. I just wish I could get past this one thing. Seems like the Alps sometimes, though. Anyway. You guys are friends and just thought I'd put my chips on the table.

[Avatar]

Sometimes all you can do is live in such a way as to repudiate whatever it was that you regret doing. Recognise that it was something that contributed to your being the way that you are now. You can't undo it. But you can "atone" for it. Perhaps not to that person, but by living in a way that opposes the viewpoint that lead you to do it in the first place.

*shrug*

For what it's worth, it doesn't affect my opinion of you.

--A

[Worm of Despite]

Thanks, Av. I felt like saying something similar--that I should remain strong for others. To a degree this is a good thing. It has opened my eyes. Keeps me awake in a way that can often feel vital. I truly understand TC's feelings of what his own guilt must have been like; how it impelled him to destroy Foul.

And yes; in a way I don't regret it. I wrote a book; stories; poetry. The me without certain pains? Would he have as much to show? There is a glory in long suffering.

Anyway. Cheers, again.

[Avatar]

Dunno about glory. But character, yes.

--A

[rusmeister]

Guilt can be a powerful thing, as SRD said... As well as a crushing thing. A long time ago, when I was 17, I betrayed a friend's trust. The circumstances are a bit unique but the emotions and the one I hurt were real, so it matters little. The condensed version: in a video game, Ultima Online, for some anarchist reason I logged onto another person's account and took their gold and some of their items. Now; this person was a leader and a respected person in that game (a medieval game where other people play together, paying by month; similar to World of Warcraft).

He trusted me to do some duties on his account, such as play for him when he was gone. I don't know why I did it. Plenty of underlying reasons, maybe: some kind of lashing out because I'd been made fun of at school all my life; the kid with the glasses, overweight, etc. Still; that's no excuse.

And it haunts me to this day, nearly 10 years later. And I've sent him three messages in that intervening time, asking for forgiveness, but no reply. I doubt even his forgiveness would allay the crushing pain I sometimes feel. Sometimes it's so hard I feel like I'll never breathe again; that I'm numb everywhere. Some days are totally fine. I know I must be a good person for it to hurt me so much.

So betrayal. If this person does not forgive me of one of the gravest sins, then what? I suppose it's my punishment to carry that weight the rest of my life. I just wish there was some other way to see it; some way to just move on and feel like a good person like everyone else. Because other than that I think I’ve done well.

Not sure what I'm asking for; or why I posted. But felt like I needed to.

So many things have gone right in my life, don't get me wrong. And I'm very enthusiastic and think plenty of great things are ahead. I just wish I could get past this one thing. Seems like the Alps sometimes, though. Anyway. You guys are friends and just thought I'd put my chips on the table.

Avatar is quite right. (Surprise!) It's the thing we call "repentance", put in other terms.

One thing I think you will run afoul of (pun not intended) in even the Episcopal tradition (it being a Christian one) is the idea that you are a good person. "There is no one good except God" - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". In traditional Christianity, we are NOT good. The best we can do is to do good things. But we are Fallen - and that's not merely an Orthodox concept, but that which has been held in common in the East and the West across the millennia, at least until the late 20th century. Hearing the voice of our conscience telling us what we ought to do, and feeling sorrow over our failings does not, in itself, make us good.

But in your case, you can take comfort from the fact that the party chiefly offended by our sin is Christ, and it is He that must ultimately forgive us, and certainly will, if only we will repent. The people we have hurt in our past, of whom we are now unable to obtain forgiveness, have to be let go - and like Av said, determine not to do the wicked behavior again (so often we do not see its wickedness/selfishness at the time, and it unfolds itself to us much later). Still, confession before a priest (not sure how the EC sees it; in Orthodoxy we confess before a priest to God, not specifically TO the priest; the priest performs the sacrament, but does not himself 'forgive' us) and counseling are strongly recommended.

On extreme is dismissing guilt, saying all guilt is bad and guilt can make no positive contribution to our lives. (Something I suspect some here lean towards.)
The opposite extreme is despair - being so consumed with guilt that you cannot see the possibility of forgiveness and redemption - the sin of Judas.

A hard-core film that might be too much for some would be Pavel Lungin's "The Island" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrov_%28film%29
It nails guilt, repentance and redemption. It's an awesome film, and a definite keeper.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Guilt can be a powerful thing, as SRD said

You titled this thread "regret" but then you describe guilt.

It's two different things.
Found online:
"Guilt results from doing something that we knew was wrong at the time. Regret comes from later learning that we could have done something better."


I only caught that because I have a incident of regret that pops into my head from time to time.
I was in a car accident where a guy in an oncoming pickup fell asleep and literally ran over my car. I was fine but my car was totaled.
Anyway, a few days later the guy called me up and said he was sorry. His friend had recently died and he was working too hard.......
I didn't really say anything back to him wondering if anything I did say would come back and hurt me if I ended up suing him.
I just said "ok, I don't know what to say." then we both said bye.
That was it, insurance handled everything and we both moved on.
I look back at that with regret that I didn't at least tell the guy not to worry about it, "shit happens" or something. Tossed him a little bone so to speak.

[lorin]

I think finding the motivations for your actions can and will lead to a healing. That is not an easy task. Often the real motivations are hidden. For instance, did you envy his perceived power? Or was the real motive to alleviate a sense of powerlessness in your life? Just an example. Once you really understand Your motives,perhaps you could send him a letter telling him of your discovery. And then you can move on. Regrets will always be part of our emotional makeup, but forgiveness (of self and others) should always provide balance.

My life is riddled with regrets and truth be told, , often I looking for the forgiveness.

[Worm of Despite]

Dunno about glory. But character, yes.

--A

Yeah, I considered leaving that line out. But I have had some glorious moments thanks to writing. Was my complex way of saying perhaps I've done some things right.

HLT: I do agree they're two different things, but at the same time guilt and regret are often found in the same equation (as you've said; regret commonly follows the guilt). So that's why I interchanged them here. My situation had common symptoms.

rus: my church does have a "healing service" on Tuesday so that could well be confession or confession-like.

lorin: yes; it wasn't totally reasonless but at the same time he was the one who deserved my ire least. I was actually very respected in that community as well and had played some big parts in the game's role-play. So it wasn't about power. One factor might be that the group he was in charge of (which again, I was well-liked in and a part of) had some leaders who thought it was time for me to go (since they were orcs and I was half-orc). Sounds silly, yes. But I was too young really to take it in stride. I had felt my place was there and lashed out in response. In a very immature, regretful manner.

[aliantha]

One of the hardest things in this life is to learn to forgive yourself. Everybody does stupid stuff when they're young. It's part of growing up.

Not saying what you did was excusable, LF. But as you say, this was years ago, you were a kid, and now you know how stupid it was and you'll never do it again. Right? So. You've tried to get the guy to say he forgives you, but (understandably) he won't. So your only choices at this point, really, are to keep dwelling on it, or to forgive yourself for being young and stupid, and move on. Choice #2 is by far the healthier of the two.

[rusmeister]

One of the hardest things in this life is to learn to forgive yourself. Everybody does stupid stuff when they're young. It's part of growing up.

Not saying what you did was excusable, LF. But as you say, this was years ago, you were a kid, and now you know how stupid it was and you'll never do it again. Right? So. You've tried to get the guy to say he forgives you, but (understandably) he won't. So your only choices at this point, really, are to keep dwelling on it, or to forgive yourself for being young and stupid, and move on. Choice #2 is by far the healthier of the two.

I completely disagree. Forgiving oneself is generally easy. It is our conscience - if we have not stifled it - that stands against easy forgiveness of self, and usually it loses to a thing called "self-justification" - a thing greatly encouraged by modern ideas encouraging people to "forgive themselves". The real teat is if the offended people will forgive us, and I've already addressed what must be done if they will not.

Time does nothing to the fact of sin. It does NOT heal those wounds. Only repentance, and the grace of God, can do that. If you gave someone a disease twenty years ago, the fact of that remains. "Forgiving yourself" is only a form of self-justification. "I did it, I screwed you all, and now I decide that it's OK".

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

My view on this may be seriously unreliable, but I'm really surprised you're worried about an in-game situation 10 years later.

It's good you can see there are positive sides to this. There are many cases when people are purposefully led (or decide themselves) to do something negative in games or enjoy reading, watching etc. horrid stories, envisioning the terrible scenes, not to do so in reality or at least decrease the danger of that.

As for getting past - there should be some way definitely, it's not like people have to feel guilt about game gold for their whole lives, though hard to say what exactly - it depends on the person always. Maybe something of the described above, there's not much to add to that. However, there's one more thing - about that person not replying. I'd rather worry about the moral health of a person who holds a grudge and can't forgive an in-game occurrence for ten years.

[lorin]

Everybody does stupid stuff when they're young. It's part of growing up.

Trust me, you don't have to be young to do stupid stuff

[aliantha]

One of the hardest things in this life is to learn to forgive yourself. Everybody does stupid stuff when they're young. It's part of growing up.

I completely disagree.

Imagine that.

Frankly, I blame Judeo-Christian thought for the overwhelming amount of guilt/regret/shame people feel in the West. It's emphatically NOT a good thing to feel guilty for everything that happens to you, or to others around you, and it's emphatically NOT a good thing to regret not being able to save the people around you from themselves. And yet people beat themselves up over that very thing every day.

Plus I just don't think there's a lot of percentage in continuing to feel guilty about something that happened 10 or 20 years ago. There's nothing healthy or rewarding about dwelling on one's failures.

And btw, the Episcopal church doesn't have confession like the Catholic church does. Or at least I've never heard of it. Not that my knowledge of Episcopalianism is encyclopedic.

[rusmeister]

One of the hardest things in this life is to learn to forgive yourself. Everybody does stupid stuff when they're young. It's part of growing up.

I completely disagree.

Imagine that.

Frankly, I blame Judeo-Christian thought for the overwhelming amount of guilt/regret/shame people feel in the West. It's emphatically NOT a good thing to feel guilty for everything that happens to you, or to others around you, and it's emphatically NOT a good thing to regret not being able to save the people around you from themselves. And yet people beat themselves up over that very thing every day.

Plus I just don't think there's a lot of percentage in continuing to feel guilty about something that happened 10 or 20 years ago. There's nothing healthy or rewarding about dwelling on one's failures.

And btw, the Episcopal church doesn't have confession like the Catholic church does. Or at least I've never heard of it. Not that my knowledge of Episcopalianism is encyclopedic.

I'm trying to be positive about the EC. (Not that things like the admitted reversal of the majority in VOTING on what traditional morality is make that easy)

I agree that it would be bad to feel guilty about everything that happens to you.... a rather odd reaction to life in general; although I'm not at all sure that it would be a bad thing to regret not being able to save others - although I don't think that was part of the conversation at all; it's not on the table.

But my earlier points remain unrefuted. If I screw you, leave you pregnant AND give you a permanent disease, and then talk, ten, twenty, or fifty years later about 'forgiving myself' without reference to whether you might forgive me or not - or worse - treat whether you might or not as simply irrelevant - then there's something inhuman about you. YOU might be superhuman in forgiving me, but I would be the beast for suggesting that I do not need your forgiveness.

The healthy thing about dwelling on one's failures is simple and obvious - it fuels a determination to not repeat them. A refusal to dwell on them makes repetition ever so likely.

There is such a thing as unreasonable and unproductive guilt, and I would chime in with you on such things as you list. But to make a leap to the idea that guilt can therefore never be reasonable or productive is itself unreasonable.

[Fist and Faith]

Foul, what you did was, indeed, wrong. Unfortunate that you did it. BUT! Those years are when we learn these lessons. In some cases, we don't know our moral stance on something until we try it out. You knew it was wrong when you did it. But you didn't know how wrong. Was it really a big deal? Or was it just a tiny thing that wasn't important in the face of other things? Well, you learned the answer. You were lucky, because you learned it in a way that didn't rob someone of anything more than e-crap. He wasn't actually harmed in a way that will impact on his life. But you were harmed, and you deserved it. But you learned a very big lesson without causing rl harm to the victim. That feeling will be with you forever, and it will guide you. There's little danger of you doing this again, and much less danger of you stealing someone's actual money or property.

[Worm of Despite]

it's not like people have to feel guilt about game gold for their whole lives

It's not exactly like that, unfortunately. I took things from him he'd accumulated over 3 or more years: millions of gold, certain items you get as an award for playing for a year or more. This wasn't just, Hehe, I think I'll take a bit of his coffers. It's more like, I'll take everything.

So he's not totally wrong for still being unable to forgive me all these years. He doesn't owe me anything in my mind.

And btw, the Episcopal church doesn't have confession like the Catholic church does. Or at least I've never heard of it. Not that my knowledge of Episcopalianism is encyclopedic.

My Church’s handout (for visitors) said thus:

The Episcopal Church recognizes five additional rites as sacramental in character: confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony, reconciliation of a penitent (confession and absolution), and unction (anointing or laying on of hands for healing).

Apparently it's different from the Catholic Reconciliation: still private and with a priest, but no booth or dividing screen. Either in the space of worship or the clergyman's office. Not sure what you think of that, rus, but to me it seems valid and the same thing regardless.

Foul, what you did was, indeed, wrong. Unfortunate that you did it. BUT! Those years are when we learn these lessons. In some cases, we don't know our moral stance on something until we try it out. You knew it was wrong when you did it. But you didn't know how wrong.

Yep. Me at 17.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

it's not like people have to feel guilt about game gold for their whole lives

It's not exactly like that, unfortunately. I took things from him he'd accumulated over 3 or more years: millions of gold, certain items you get as an award for playing the game for a year or more. This wasn't just, Hehe, I think I'll take a bit of his coffers. It's more like, I'll take everything.
...

I didn't say you took a little gold or something like that - I presumed that it must have been much from what you said. I meant that in-game valuables aren't at all such a reason for dismay - they are neither necessary in life nor giving a person any real improvement. Losing them may be seriously unpleasant, but does nothing serious to the person. It's most of all like when a child purposefully breaks another one's favorite toy. Actually, it is that.

[Worm of Despite]

it's not like people have to feel guilt about game gold for their whole lives

It's not exactly like that, unfortunately. I took things from him he'd accumulated over 3 or more years: millions of gold, certain items you get as an award for playing the game for a year or more. This wasn't just, Hehe, I think I'll take a bit of his coffers. It's more like, I'll take everything.
...

I didn't say you took a little gold or something like that - I presumed that it must have been much from what you said. I meant that in-game valuables aren't at all such a reason for dismay - they are neither necessary in life nor giving a person any real improvement.

I suppose. But nevertheless I broke a trust and hurt him. And that was real. Yes. He didn't deserve to be essentially hacked (though he gave me his information and knew me as a friend) and then pilfered. Especially since he'd really done nothing and he had a job to do as a leader in that community.

Yes. The game was important and a bit consuming to both of us, but nevertheless; a wrongdoing is a wrongdoing.

I suppose we could discuss the metaphysical importance of a betrayal (or just mean acts) on the Internet compared to reality. But I feel like that could be for another thread. Or maybe down the road in this one.

To me it's all reality. Before this happened I would have been thrilled to meet him, to have a beer or chat with him. As an interesting aside: he could have told the whole community; he could have slandered me as I deserved but he never did. Strange...

[rusmeister]

it's not like people have to feel guilt about game gold for their whole lives

It's not exactly like that, unfortunately. I took things from him he'd accumulated over 3 or more years: millions of gold, certain items you get as an award for playing the game for a year or more. This wasn't just, Hehe, I think I'll take a bit of his coffers. It's more like, I'll take everything.
...

I didn't say you took a little gold or something like that - I presumed that it must have been much from what you said. I meant that in-game valuables aren't at all such a reason for dismay - they are neither necessary in life nor giving a person any real improvement. Losing them may be seriously unpleasant, but does nothing serious to the person. It's most of all like when a child purposefully breaks another one's favorite toy. Actually, it is that.

The trouble with a child purposefully taking or breaking another's toy is that it translates in adult life into taking or ruining the property of others. The root problem is the opposite of love. Just because the offender is very young doesn't mean that the offence should be left undiscouraged, or worse, encouraged through 'self-forgiveness'. Christ knew that virtual wickedness leads to actual wickedness.

27. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

It opens the door to playing with the idea. Anyone who sees the painfully obvious connection between gaming violence in, say, Grand Theft Auto, and real violence against others can see it.

I say that the specific situation is Foul's conscience and we can't judge with certainty. But generally speaking, he's right to feel guilt and feel that it was wrong, and like Av said, to repent (metanoia, if the word "repent" has too much baggage to be properly understood), to make a solid determination not to do it again and to make any amends possible (often it's not possible), as we all ought to do for our past sins (wrongs, misdeeds, choose your euphemism) Having done that, we should not spend every minute of every day moaning and groaning on that particular sin, but when issues of responsibility and care for another's things comes up, he (we) SHOULD remember what we did wrong, remember our guilt then - which is a fact - and let our feeling of guilt strengthen that determination to be doubly careful about another's possessions (or wife, or whatever).

Speaking about 'forgiving oneself' basically makes wrongdoing OK - and not only in the past, but logically in the future as well. If one means "Don't beat yourself up for the rest of your life", as I think most do, then that is what they should say. But the awful consequences of becoming one's own forgiver of one's own sins - to become one's own god, deciding for ourselves what we will make OK and what - not - is to eliminate the need to be forgiven by others, and by God. "Forgive" is like 'give'. If we speak of 'giving to ourselves', it ceases to be actual giving, but becomes merely a form of self-approval and self-worship. I walk through life and trample over others, but it's OK because I forgive myself. Just one short step away from the gangsters in "The Godfather" who go to confession and then go out to a killing. The former at least sense that they need to seek something outside of themselves.

I don't think anyone intends that. I think that those that speak of forgiving oneself intend peace and happiness for all. But what you get is the uplifting of the self at the cost of social relation with others. Humility is thrown out the door and pride gets complete license.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Foul, I think that what you're saying about, "no, really, I'm totally aware that this was real harm and a betrayal of trust" is wise; though it kinda sucks and is painful to taste the bitter pill of having to see something like that in oneself.

...[finding the motivations for your actions] is not an easy task. Often the real motivations are hidden...

It is amazing how deeply buried those real motivations can be.

Here's the real clincher for me: often when I feel extreme guilt about one thing, I find I am avoiding another situation that I should be feeling appropriate guilt (and making appropriate changes) in.

Usually, the one I am fretting over is kinda piddling and beyond my power to change.
And the one I am avoiding dealing with is one I may be able to change, but which would be scary to try to.

HLT- well, _I_ say "Good for you" for evaluating your motivations in real-time, when you were put on the spot by that guy. Maybe you coulda done better, but wow, you located and avoided a major danger. And you know? Sometimes when people want us to "let them know we are okay with them," that is NOT what they need just then.