Kevin's Watch

This is something of a response to Rus, who said that we had to try and link our beliefs into what other people believe in order to give guidance into what people really believe, or something liek that.

On facebook, my status is currently listed as "Jewish." This is in part because, for the early years of my life, I maintained a connection with Judaism. But that connection was, though communally true, spiritually a lie. I underwent b'nai mitzvah not believing that the stories I was being told were true, that they were right, that they were fair. My b'nai mitzvah story was of Aaron's two drunken (eldest) sons being incinerated by god for failing to properly make a sacrifice.

My mom says she always remembers me saying "maybe god was wrong" to the congregation of jews there assembled. Well, the rabbi let me put it in my speech. The blame is still mine. Free will was given to me, and I made my choice. The real thing I don't understand is why I was never asked if I wanted to be b'nai mitzvah. The critical mistake which either reform judaism or that I made, IIRC, is that they never asked my opinion. They never asked, do you want to maintain your jewish identity by becoming b'nai mitzvah. Due to my interest in the stories and my relative competency in hebrew, it was, I suppose, merely taken for granted that I wanted to.

BTW, I have no idea whether I would have said yes or no.

I failed the exam regardless. I failed to say "I don't want to have a bar mitzvah." Dammit all. At least it was reform. Someone has to make these stupid mistakes, it may as well be me. I will always identify myself as, at least, a jew by my mother's side, solely because this is the way they came for the jews during the holocaust. And I will always remember the 12 million.

(actually it might not be always, thoguh I want it to be. I have this stupid way of breaking my promises...so shohuld I take it back? Well, I don't remember all the other promises I've made that I'm going to break down the line...)

Keep in mind, Holsety, you weren't asked if you wanted to be a bar mitzvah (son of the commandments) because you become one regardless of if you ever have an aliyah on the Torah or not. Once a Jewish male turns 13, or a Jewish female turns 12, they become bar or bas mitzvah. Unlike confirmation in other religions, the ceremony has little to do with the becoming. The ceremony, and the party after, are merely window dressing on the bar or bas mitzvah saying the blessings over the Torah for the first time. But one becomes bar or bas mitzvah regardless.

In Judaism, even if one "converts out" of the religion, they are forever a member of the tribes and remain bar or bas mitzvah forever, once they come of age.

Menolly wrote:Keep in mind, Holsety, you weren't asked if you wanted to be a bar mitzvah (son of the commandments) because you become one regardless of if you ever have an aliyah on the Torah or not. Once a Jewish male turns 13, or a Jewish female turns 12, they become bar or bas mitzvah. Unlike confirmation in other religions, the ceremony has little to do with the becoming. The ceremony, and the party after, are merely window dressing on the bar or bas mitzvah saying the blessings over the Torah for the first time. But one becomes bar or bas mitzvah regardless.

In Judaism, even if one "converts out" of the religion, they are forever a member of the tribes and remain bar or bas mitzvah forever, once they come of age.

Ah, well in reform we had such dissidents who avoided b'nai mitzvah and ultimately skipped out on the ceremony altogether. They were the ones wiser than I because they were true to their SELVES and not the other, by my standard of measuring things. And of course through lineage one is always a member of the tribes once one is born a member of them, no?

Leaving aside what Menolly said there, and in terms only of yourself, does it matter?

I was raised catholic. Took my first holy communion. Nobody asked me if I wanted to. It was what you did. But I don't ever think of it as being anything defining.

(I didn't have a confirmation though, because by then I was an atheist, so I refused.)

Arbitrary ceremonies don't define you any more than arbitrary thoughts do.

--A

Avatar wrote:Leaving aside what Menolly said there, and in terms only of yourself, does it matter?

I was raised catholic. Took my first holy communion. Nobody asked me if I wanted to. It was what you did. But I don't ever think of it as being anything defining.

(I didn't have a confirmation though, because by then I was an atheist, so I refused.)

Arbitrary ceremonies don't define you any more than arbitrary thoughts do.

--A

I like that. Many times we allow such arbitrary things to define us when they don't have to or shouldn't.

Avatar wrote:Leaving aside what Menolly said there, and in terms only of yourself, does it matter?

I was raised catholic. Took my first holy communion. Nobody asked me if I wanted to. It was what you did. But I don't ever think of it as being anything defining.

(I didn't have a confirmation though, because by then I was an atheist, so I refused.)

Arbitrary ceremonies don't define you any more than arbitrary thoughts do.

--A

Does it really matter? I'm not entirely sure. I simply thought that Rus, who wanted some sort of statement of belief from people in general, might appreciate a relatively simple one from me. I am jewish because I was born a jew. Nothing more, nothing less.

If arbitrary things, generally, don't define me, what isn't arbitrary and what does define me? My self? I think that has already been put well enough in flux. Hell, I even made a pretty convincing argument by my own judgement (probably not at all new to philosophy or religion even in explicit terms) elsewhere that the self/other distinction is fictional.

Holsety wrote: I am jewish because I was born a jew. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ah, gotcha. I thought you were saying it was something you felt defined you in some way, yet you didn't want it to.

Yes, I think the large majority of religion is "habitual." You tend to be what your parents were. It takes thought and commitment to become something else.

--A

Avatar wrote:

Holsety wrote: I am jewish because I was born a jew. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ah, gotcha. I thought you were saying it was something you felt defined you in some way, yet you didn't want it to.

Yes, I think the large majority of religion is "habitual." You tend to be what your parents were. It takes thought and commitment to become something else.

--A

I think it defines me in a way I don't want it to AT TIMES, but I also have the mental capacity to then challenge the way that my conception of judaism defines me and take myself back to being jewish in a way I can be satisfied with.

What I'm saying is that you don't have to be Jewish just because you went through the ceremony.

And Menolly was saying you don't have to go through the ceremony to be Jewish either.

I think that all means that it's up to you.

--A

Avatar wrote:What I'm saying is that you don't have to be Jewish just because you went through the ceremony.

And Menolly was saying you don't have to go through the ceremony to be Jewish either.

I think that all means that it's up to you.

--A

Are you trying to hijack this into a determinism VS free will debate?

Hahaha, not at all, although we can if you want to.

--A