Wall Street

[Rigel]

The protests are really heating up.

For example, see here:
www.politicususa.com/en/police-mace-two ... all-street

(The first video was extremely poor quality; the second one on that page is much clearer)

I've been hearing for close to 20 years stories about how societies tend to revolt when the wage gap reaches a certain level. While I don't think the US is close to an armed revolution yet, Occupy Wall Street is certainly a bad sign. Of course, the real problem with economic troubles is that there's noone to be angry at. So, people are protesting the symbol of the systemic problems we've been facing, Wall Street itself.

What other videos have people found that stand out about it, and why isn't this on the news?

[Cybrweez]

I'm not exactly clear on the purpose of this occupy wall street. I've poked around daily kos, just seems a bit unorganized. Maybe you have to be entrenched to know what its all about, what the goals are. May explain why it doesn't get much coverage.

Or, Wall Street owns all the major media outlets.

In any case, hard to really know what it all means. I blame high unemployment and income inequality.

[Zarathustra]

I just saw the same video on Fox News, so, no conspiracy to hide the story there. The macing doesn't really seem justified, but it's a crappy video. Maybe there was a reason. We don't know. I think when you're flash-mobbing a street illegally, you just might find yourself getting pepper by the police. Maybe next time get a permit for your protests, and don't try to shut down a street?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I get daily updates about it when I listen to DemocracyNow on the radio. I may not always agree with Amy Goodman but she does report on news and events that I can't hear from any other source.

It normally takes a lot for Americans to get out and protest. When I say "a lot" I mean a lot--we're pretty lazy and complacent, most of the time. The fact that these folks are out here is indicative of how desperate some people are becoming.

[Holsety]

I just saw the same video on Fox News, so, no conspiracy to hide the story there. The macing doesn't really seem justified, but it's a crappy video. Maybe there was a reason. We don't know. I think when you're flash-mobbing a street illegally, you just might find yourself getting pepper by the police. Maybe next time get a permit for your protests, and don't try to shut down a street?

I'm still trying to figure out if the protest was illegally conducted or not. I read a story indicating it started in a privately held public park, so maybe the problem is it was legal but there was too much spillover into the street? It is telling that the NYPD won't comment right now on what charges the people are being held under, we'll have to wait until they do start issuing comments on charges to be sure of what's going on, no? But I assume you're right, and that the protest WAS conducted illegally, because chances are there would have been police roadblocks otherwise.

However, the fact that we had white shirts - smaller in number, and therefore likely higher in rank, not to mention color associations - though I don't know the rules or uniforming of police in NYC - doing the spraying implies a degree of agency on the part of the police officers. We need pepper spray to get people willing to be arrested instead of willing to stand there shouting at us refusing to do anything.

Anyway, I don't believe that systemic change can be wrought by individuals outside the system at this point in time, however I believe we are on the path towards wreaking it at an ever-accelerating rate.

It normally takes a lot for Americans to get out and protest. When I say "a lot" I mean a lot--we're pretty lazy and complacent, most of the time. The fact that these folks are out here is indicative of how desperate some people are becoming.

I've been in much bigger protests that achieved nothing.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I've been in much bigger protests that achieved nothing.

Same here. In fact, there haven't been any protests during my lifetime that have resulted in significant change. In this country, at least.

[Rigel]

There's a great scene in the movie Cinderella Man where one of Russel Crowe's friends is talking about protests, and how they want to fight... Crowe's reaction is pretty much, "WHO are you fighting? I've got a guy in front of me to hit."

The protest doesn't make sense to me without a specific agenda... People are mad, but they don't know what to do.

The fact that so many people are angry, aimless, and in the street is what really worries me about it. That's a bad combination to have there.

[Avatar]

The fact that so many people are angry, aimless, and in the street is what really worries me about it. That's a bad combination to have there.

Agreed.

--A

[SerScot]

A friend on Facebook link this from the protestors, it's their "manifesto":

nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/

From the Manifesto:

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.

They're leftist/Marxist kooks.

I'll say what I said on my Facebook thread. The fundemental problem with Marxists is that they want to replace a system, "that rewards the few on the backs of the labor of billions" with a system that rewards the politically powerful on the backs of the labor of billions.

It's the flip side of the same coin creating the same situation but without rewarding those who risk their capital and labor to build their own businesses. I will not claim that large scale corporate Capitalism is without flaws. I much prefer to buy from businesses that are owner operated and allow their employees to buy in giving them the advantage of directly benefiting from profits and directly risking losses if the company has problems. But the existing Capitalist structure is better than any system Marxists have established.

[SoulBiter]

smallbusiness.foxbusiness.com/index.html?intcmp=sbc_globalnav


Thousands Protest at Bank of America Offices in Boston

That protest was about BoA forclosure practices and of course BoA just late last week announced they were going to charge 5 dollars a month for using debit cards. I hope their customers vote with their feet and leave.

[Avatar]

The fundemental problem with Marxists is that they want to replace a system, "that rewards the few on the backs of the labor of billions" with a system that rewards the politically powerful on the backs of the labor of billions.

That's not much different than what we have. Right now, the few include the politically powerful. *shrug*

--A

[SerScot]

Avatar,

The fundemental problem with Marxists is that they want to replace a system, "that rewards the few on the backs of the labor of billions" with a system that rewards the politically powerful on the backs of the labor of billions.

That's not much different than what we have. Right now, the few include the politically powerful. *shrug*

--A

Actually, it is. The "power" these people have gained they get after risking capital and building their business. Now I believe we would all benefit if more businesses when to an employee owned model where everyone working at a given business actually has an ownership stake in the business. But at least the power gained is from the work they've actually put in rather than because they are over the "Ministry of Restaruants" or some such.

[Cybrweez]

Probably not true. Big money is in financial industry, which is to make money off other people's money. For the most part, they risk other peoples' capital. Because, when they bet and lose, they are bailed out. But their clients aren't. You could say they are quite politically powerful.

[SerScot]

Cybr,

So those investment banks were started with no effort and no personal capital?

[Cybrweez]

I'm sure most, if not all, were. To think they've grown to TBTF size on the same model is naive however.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

They're leftist/Marxist kooks.

Of course some of the protesters are but most of them are not.

Even if they all were, it cannot be denied that some of what they say is true--corporations do "game the system" and buy politicians to advance only themselves and improve their bottom line regardless of who they have to step on to do it.

If a corporation has become "too big to fail" then it should be too big to exist in its current form and should be broken into a handful of smaller companies.

[I'm Murrin]

Here's a related site where people are sharing their stories:
wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

They're pretty much what you'd expect. Ordinary people having a hard time because of the current economic climate (but still not as hard as you'd find in a lot of other countries, naturally).

[Cybrweez]

www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-jarvis/occu ... 91928.html

So I will impose mine. #OccupyWallStreet, to me, is about institutional failure. And so it is appropriate that #OccupyWallStreet itself is not run as an institution.

I can see the anarchist bent here. And I get the ideal. But really, you can expect leaderless movements to generally not get things done. Too many people wondering what the hell its all about, never mind actually changing anything.

"Hey man, its about getting rid of all institutions. Like Lennon's 'Imagine'".

Yea, good luck with that.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

That whole "flower power" movement in the late 60s was essentially leaderless; it didn't accomplish anything, either, especially after Kent State. That event didn't kill only 4 students, it killed the whole movement.

Even if I do support these people protesting corporations and how closely linked they are to government, their protests will ultimately result in nothing...which is kind of a shame.

[aliantha]

That whole "flower power" movement in the late 60s was essentially leaderless; it didn't accomplish anything, either, especially after Kent State. That event didn't kill only 4 students, it killed the whole movement.

I couldn't disagree more. Those "flower power" kids brought about the end of the Vietnam War by galvanizing American opposition to the war. It took awhile -- Kent State occurred in May 1970 and the Paris Peace Accords were signed in January 1973 -- but the protests did have an impact. Kent State wasn't the first protest, but it was the one that really jump-started the protest movement and forced the establishment to take the protestors seriously.

College students were involved then because they were being drafted to fight a war they wanted no part of. College students are involved now because they can't find jobs. You can write them off as "leftist/Marxist kooks" if you like, but I don't much in that manifesto that's not true.