Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:20 pm**

Xbox workers in China threatened mass suicide

'The reason you see these protests is because the employees feel they have no other option,' rights activist reportedly says .
In a picture taken on May 26, 2010 Chinese workers assemble electronic components at the Taiwanese technology giant Foxconn's factory in Shenzhen, in the southern Guangzhou province.msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 2 hours 31 minutes ago 2012-01-12T12:35:11
Dozens of workers assembling Xbox video game consoles climbed to a factory dormitory roof, and some threatened to jump to their deaths, in a dispute over jobs that was defused but highlights growing labor unrest as China's economy slows.

The dispute boiled over last week after contract manufacturer Foxconn Technology Group said it would close the production line for Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox 360 consoles at its plant in the central city of Wuhan and transfer some workers to other jobs, workers and Foxconn said Thursday.

(Msnbc.com is a joint venture of Microsoft Corp. and NBC Universal, which is jointly owned by Comcast Corp. and General Electric.)

Workers reached by telephone said Foxconn initially offered severance pay for those who wanted to leave rather than be transferred, but then reneged, angering the workers.

Only on msnbc.com Iran leader talks tough against US in Latin America tour
Gingrich camp threatens TV stations over 'fine' ads
M. Kornmesser / ESO
160 billion planets in the Milky Way?! .
Getty Images
More see class conflict between rich and poor .
Homicide no longer a top cause of death in U.S.

Sony: It's time to try harder .

Romney: Rivals’ attacks a ‘good warm-up’ .
..Story: Another Foxconn worker "falls to death" at south China plant
Foxconn said in a statement that transfers were offered, not severance, and only to some workers.

The workers climbed to the top of the six-story dormitory on Jan. 3 and threatened to jump before Wuhan city officials persuaded them to desist and return to work, according to the workers and accounts online.

200 involved?
The workers gave varying estimates of the numbers involved in the strike, from 80 to 200, and photos posted online showed dozens of people crowding the roof of the boxy concrete building.

Advertise | AdChoicesAdvertise | AdChoices
Advertise | AdChoices
."Actually none of them were going to jump. They were there for the compensation. But the government and the company officials were just as afraid, because if even one of them jumped, the consequences would be hard to imagine," said Wang Jungang, an equipment engineer in the Xbox production line, who left the plant earlier this month.

Geoffrey Crothall, a director at rights group China Labor Bulletin, told the Bloomberg news agency that the threat of suicide was commonly used by Chinese workers to draw attention to complaints.

"The reason you see these protests is because the employees feel they have no other option," Crothall told Bloomberg.

Story: Foxconn to end suicide payments to families
The fracas is the latest labor trouble to hit Foxconn, a unit of Taiwan's Hon Hai Precision Industry Co. that makes iPads and iPhones for Apple Inc. as well as Xboxes and other gadgets, helping consumer electronics brands hold down costs.

Its massive China plants are run with military-like discipline, which labor rights activists say contributed to spate of suicides in 2010.

45 workers resigned
Foxconn said that it offered transfers to some workers at current pay, without elaborating on what others were offered. It said that 150 demanded severance and not all of them participated in the rooftop protest.

"It is our understanding that certain individuals threatened to jump from the building if their demands were not met," the statement said.

After the rooftop protest, Microsoft said in a statement that it investigated, finding that the dispute centered on Foxconn's staffing and transfer policies, not working conditions.

"After the protest, the majority of workers chose to return to work. A smaller portion of those employees elected to resign, the statement said.

Ultimately, Foxconn said, 45 of the employees resigned from the company while the rest chose to stay.

It did not say whether the resigning workers were given compensation. Wang, the engineer, said he received $4,700 in compensation but that was because his supervisor helped him.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

OMG! Now they are getting a sense of entitlement just like us. It makes me sick. If you choose to work for a company you are putting your future at the success, failure, or whim of that company. The company owes you nothing other than pay for the time you've actually worked.

In the US at least, it amazes me how many people with high school educations and no specialized skills manage to get a good paying jobs and then refuse to accept less when they get laid off or think that the comapny owes them something.

This kind of thinking is a small part of what's wrong with America and it looks like we're rubbing off on others.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:53 pm**

The company also guarantees a level of security in the expectation that your job will continue. Severance pay being offered in the unexpected termination of your contract is a measure of compensation for the loss of security, and I don't see anything wrong with being upset at the withdrawal of that compensation.

Mind you, if they specifically had contracts that said the company could terminate them at any time without notice, then you'd have a valid point.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:04 pm**

There is nothing wrong with being upset at the withdrawal of your paycheck. Assuming or expecting that the comapny owes you something is the problem.

How many of you have a guarantee that your job will continue?

Many states in the US are employment-at-will states. That means either party can terminate the employment at any time, for any reason.

Maybe they expect the company to take care of them because they are communists. They've been trained to think that someone else should provide for them.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:15 pm**

I see a deeper problem of China's slowing economy. They may have been running things poorly, and it may be coming to light now. Could create quite a stir if a few billion people realize things are getting worse.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:19 pm**

Yeah, I might be more willing to agree with respect to the US.... but this is China, where a week's wages wouldn't buy a soda here and your property can be sold to any company at the whim of the government.

I think most places in China have 'suicide netting' to prevent exactly this thing.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:27 pm**

Problem?! Not for us. For us, it's great. I want their economy to slow down. I do not want to compete with them for oil. I hate it that unions and entitlement have forced so many jobs and industries over there (and India and Brazil) and then we go buy all the substandard shit they produce at Wal-Mart. Not only are we losing paychecks to these countries, we are enabling them to compete with us for resources.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:35 pm**

Harbinger, I don't know how you get from "demanding more" to "assuming or expecting that the company owes you".

But I cannot help but notice that "demanding more" is simply one's prerogative in a free market, while "assuming or expecting the company owes you" lets you level criticisms of entitlement.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:46 pm**

In this example, people are either losing their job or being transferred.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:01 pm**

I think a case can certainly be made by the extreme measures contemplated here that there is a growing sense of entitlement. If one says, "Give me liberty, or give me death," we can conclude from the fact that one feels so strongly about liberty that he'll die in the struggle for it, that he certainly feels entitled to be free, that it's as essential to his being as life itself.

"Give me severance pay or give me death," while sounding bat-shit crazy, certainly speaks to the same level of feeling owed something, as if severance pay is as essential to one's being as life itself. In fact, the "bat-shit crazy" part makes the case even stronger for "entitlement" in the derogatory sense of the word ... i.e. feeling entitled to something that you really have no right to expect, something another person must give you.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:04 pm**

Well, all rights are given right? Even liberty. So in that sense, rights vs entitlement is a gray area. But, its true, if you're willing to die for it, then you feel pretty strongly about it. Whether its a positive or negative thing to feel strong enough about severance package from a company is debatable.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:19 pm**

Zarathustra wrote:I think a case can certainly be made by the extreme measures contemplated here that there is a growing sense of entitlement.

You did read where it said, "Actually none of them were going to jump." ?

Not that I buy in the slightest this argument that "extreme measures" = "sense of entitlement". I can't think of an argument I've heard recently that sounded more made up on the spot.

This was just a clever protest, one which reflects a certain eastern flavor.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:24 pm**

"Actually none of them were going to jump. They were there for the compensation. But the government and the company officials were just as afraid, because if even one of them jumped, the consequences would be hard to imagine," said Wang Jungang

I"m gonna get Wrang to pick my stocks and buy a powerball ticket for me since he knows the future.

Note the "even if one of them jumped..."

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:39 pm**

Cyb, the only way someone can "give" you liberty is if they had taken it away to begin with, i.e. imprisoned or subjugated you. In this sense, it's "give back" what should have already been yours to begin with. But with an entitlement (negative, derogatory sense), you're not getting back something that has been taken from you, but something you'd like to take from someone else.

Wayfriend wrote:Not that I buy in the slightest this argument that "extreme measures" = "sense of entitlement". I can't think of an argument I've heard recently that sounded more made up on the spot.

Everything I say is made up on the spot. Are you writing rough drafts, tucking them away while you contemplate them for a few days, revising, researching, having others read them and critique, before posting? Jesus.

I didn't make an equivalency between the two concepts, as your forumation suggests. I said that an argument could be made, with this evidence in hand. If one is willing to die for something, we can assume they want it really bad, and won't contemplate the possibility that they shouldn't have it. That's not to say that everyone with a sense of entitlement will die for what they want. I certainly don't think most people who expect things to be given to them have this much motivation.

But you certainly get the sense that they believe they are owed this thing, if they will go to such measures to insist upon it. They believe they have the right to insist upon it, or they wouldn't stake their life on the demand.

Or, they're not serious and it's a stunt. Like a child throwing a tantrum. Which also arises from a sense of entitlement.

Wayfriend wrote:This was just a clever protest, one which reflects a certain eastern flavor.

Because easterners are suicidal? Kind of racist and stereotypical, isn't it? Not everyone from Asia is a samurai ready to fall on his sword.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:08 pm**

But it also seems to point out the companies were only concerned when it appeared they would have a legal issue from people committing suicide. -- giving the impression that it took a threat of suicide to be taken seriously?
Getting rid of people to save money is just good business sense, after all...but a much harder pill to swallow if it is only you and your friends' jobs that are disappearing.
Severance pay is an important benefit when trying to consider one job over another (assuming there are two to pick from). If all companies decide to do away with it, because it is cheaper to do so, then suddenly you have a population of workers whose lives have just been majorly impacted, to the great financial benefit of all the companies. This is the basic reason why unions were formed...despite the abuses that some of the larger and bloatier unions are committing with their power today.

dw

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:09 pm**

Z, I like the clarification. I guess one could say the severance should have been theirs to begin with, but I wouldn't. Unless it was in some written contract.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:01 pm**

Zarathustra wrote:But you certainly get the sense that they believe they are owed this thing

Yes. It would be fair to say that the believe that they are owed something. It would be fair to say that they feel it is unfair that they don't get it. If that's "entitlement", then I guess I have to ask what what's so bad about it. I feel like after I work 40 hours I should be paid. Is that entitlement? I feel that it would be unfair if they decided not to pay me. Is that entitlement? If so, then I am lost why we are finding fault with people for having it.

Zarathustra wrote:Kind of racist and stereotypical, isn't it?

And now we're stretching for ways of insulting the poster, are we?

If we're going to go there, then I have to say, this argument brought forth by Harbinger is oh so typical for the Think Tank:
(a) make up something about someone you don't like
(b) criticize them for this made up thing

No reality required!

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:52 pm**

WF, pointing out that a comment sounds insulting is not itself an insult. Talking about suicide in terms of "Eastern flare," like it's merely a flamboyant style behavior indicative of a particular culture, doesn't need me to stretch anything. If I had said that someone threatening to "bust a cap" in political rival was "politics with a black flare," you would certainly be justified in calling me out on my stereotypical comment. It's not very often that the Right gets to call out the Left for PC faux pas, so just let me enjoy it, damnit.

As for your first paragraph, I've already admitted that there are good and bad connotations for "entitlement," like being entitled to liberty vs someone else's money. See the distinction I made in response to Cybrweez.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:25 pm**

If we're gonna talk about racist comments, I almost spewed coffee over this one:

Harbinger wrote:Maybe they expect the company to take care of them because they are communists. They've been trained to think that someone else should provide for them.

Y'know, those Chinese, they're all Communists who think the state owes them a living.

Totally true, especially about the Chinese who've immigrated to America and whose kids are breaking the grading curve for "our" kids.

The point *I* took away from the original article was that the workers were promised severance pay and the company reneged. If that happened to me, I'd be pissed, too. And that has zero to do with what ethnic group either they, or I, belong to.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:29 pm**

Uh, I don't think that's racist ali. China is a communist state, and has been for awhile. We need to distinguish b/w observation and racism. And communism is not an ethnic group.

Posted: **Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:14 am**

aliantha wrote:The point *I* took away from the original article was that the workers were promised severance pay and the company reneged. If that happened to me, I'd be pissed, too.

Agreed.

--A

Kevin's Watch

XBOX Workers Threaten Suicide

XBOX Workers Threaten Suicide