Kevin's Watch

As far as I see it, if I am Lord Foul’s shoes right now, I would marshal all my minions, and hold out until the Worm destroys the Arch of Time. Thus Foul wins by escaping and gets his jollies having destroyed the Creator’s world. But I would hazard a guess that revenge for being trapped in this world for ages, is making him pursue the opportunity of imprisoning the Creator in one of Jerry’s doors. It appears this is going to be his fatal flaw, as this opens up a door (pardon the pun) for our tragic heroes to somehow trap Foul instead. I realize that Foul just walking away, after the Worm eats everything, wouldn’t add a lot to the drama to the story. I am just trying to think logically what I would do in his place. (I think his strategy in his use of the Giant-Raver army was questioned back in the First Chronicles)

Also, I have wondered, after TC was resurrected, wouldn’t Joan (a rightful welder of her white gold wedding ring) have been capable of destroying the Arch without TC supporting the fabric of time. Foul was in control of white gold and had access to Jerry (croyel attached) for a couple of days and should have been able to obtain his ultimate goal prior to Jerry being found in the Lost Deep. Or again, did Foul let his greed for revenge get in his way of victory. Maybe his ultimate goal wouldn’t have tasted as sweet, without getting TC and Linden to grovel at his knees before he disappears into the universe.

It definitely seems like LF has more on his mind than simple escape, like the hint "of my deeper purpose I will not speak" or somesuch...also Infelice broaches the subject near the end of AATE.

And IIRC , you're kinda right on Joan, too...someone, TC I believe, says something roughly like "the only reason Joan can't rip down the Arch is cuz she's so crazy she can't sustain a coherent effort for long enough."

On Jerry...I suspect that as he was he was insufficient for LF, was just a tool. He needs Jerry's mind uncaged [which it seems to be now] as much as Linden does...though obviously for different ultimate goals.

Remember, Findail once explained to Covenant that Foul would be toast if he did not have possession of the ring when the Worm destroyed the Earth. This may or may not be true, but it does lead one to wonder whether Foul still needs something in The Last Dark before his plans will be fruitioned.

Have all Foul's deeds so far been directed towards only rousing the Worm?

I suspect not, personally.

For one thing, Covenant and Linden have been attacked too many times since the Worm was roused. If Foul was satisfied, why bother?

Vraith wrote: On Jerry...I suspect that as he was he was insufficient for LF, was just a tool. He needs Jerry's mind uncaged [which it seems to be now] as much as Linden does...though obviously for different ultimate goals.

I agree. It's probably because the croyel is not the rightful user of Jeremiah's powers. Jeremiah's obeisance to Foul in the fire ritual in TWL was of questionable validity (He was a little child that probably didn't fully understand what he is doing and no doubt was forced into it, to some degree, by his mother) and the transference of control over him to the croyel is even more questionable. The croyel requires extraordinary materials to accomplish his goals. He needs both Staff of Law and White Gold Ring to imprison the Worm while the One Forest apparently could do it with Earthpower/Elohim powers. Likewise requiring the Blood of the Earth to escape the Land's world is an overkill. An ordinary stonedowner and a Giant bridged the gap between realities with a Lillianlor communication rod.

But if Linden had wrenched her son violently out of his mental hiding place he would have truly become the Despiser's vessel like the Ranyhyn predicted.

Wayfriend wrote: Remember, Findail once explained to Covenant that Foul would be toast if he did not have possession of the ring when the Worm destroyed the Earth. This may or may not be true, but it does lead one to wonder whether Foul still needs something in The Last Dark before his plans will be fruitioned.

I think what Findail meant was that if Foul personally roused the Worm he would need something like the White Gold Ring to defend himself against it. But if the company in tOT had roused it like some of his plans from the Second Chronicles predicted and were slain by it, he wouldn't be in danger from it. He would just stay low on the sidelines and escape from the Creation's ruins after the Worm finished destroying it.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I think what Findail meant was that if Foul personally roused the Worm he would need something like the White Gold Ring to defend himself against it. But if the company in tOT had roused it like some of his plans from the Second Chronicles predicted and were slain by it, he wouldn't be in danger from it. He would just stay low on the sidelines and escape from the Creation's ruins after the Worm finished destroying it.

That would seem to imply that the Worm has it in for whomever rouses it.

:gulp:

wayfriend wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I think what Findail meant was that if Foul personally roused the Worm he would need something like the White Gold Ring to defend himself against it. But if the company in tOT had roused it like some of his plans from the Second Chronicles predicted and were slain by it, he wouldn't be in danger from it. He would just stay low on the sidelines and escape from the Creation's ruins after the Worm finished destroying it.

That would seem to imply that the Worm has it in for whomever rouses it.

:gulp:

Of course. Isn't your first thought upon being awoken from a nice nap "I'm going to devour whomever woke me up? Crap, they have a white gold ring... well, someone's getting devoured!"

....no? Erm,....me neither....

RaverRats wrote: Also, I have wondered, after TC was resurrected, wouldn’t Joan (a rightful welder of her white gold wedding ring) have been capable of destroying the Arch without TC supporting the fabric of time. Foul was in control of white gold and had access to Jerry (croyel attached) for a couple of days and should have been able to obtain his ultimate goal prior to Jerry being found in the Lost Deep. Or again, did Foul let his greed for revenge get in his way of victory. Maybe his ultimate goal wouldn’t have tasted as sweet, without getting TC and Linden to grovel at his knees before he disappears into the universe.

Joan was not capable of destroying the arch because she wasn't sane enough to focus the power. Likewise, she wasn't capable of handing over the ring to another bearer, and if Foul just took it by force it would lose its efficacy (though for someone like the thaumaturge in TOT (crap, brain fart)) it would still have been plenty powerful enough).

Rigel wrote:the thaumaturge in TOT (crap, brain fart)

And as soon as I hit "send" I went "D***it! Kasreyn of the Gyre!"

Foul leaves too many holes in his plans.

His arrogance has blinded him to well laid plans.
He is poker player in a chess match.

He has a problem with SWMNBN.

I might suspect that SHE might eat the sandgorgans and skruj, seeing them as a source to increase her power. She might also tussle with the worm because he may be a beacon to her.

And that forbidding theme does look like it has merit.

wayfriend wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I think what Findail meant was that if Foul personally roused the Worm he would need something like the White Gold Ring to defend himself against it. But if the company in tOT had roused it like some of his plans from the Second Chronicles predicted and were slain by it, he wouldn't be in danger from it. He would just stay low on the sidelines and escape from the Creation's ruins after the Worm finished destroying it.

That would seem to imply that the Worm has it in for whomever rouses it.

:gulp:

They're in the way! We have a world to devour here. (was thinking about Robin Hobb's Farseer series

Spoiler

and how the stone dragons wake and they're HUNGRY!

Wasn't there a question about this in one of the GI?

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:You might well ask why Lord Foul doesn't just rouse the Worm himself. That sure sounds simpler than trying to manipulate a white gold wielder. But I suspect (just guessing here <grin>) that he's afraid he might get eaten.

(03/02/2006)

But I don't see anywhere where SRD indicates that if someone else rouses the Worm, Foul will be in a better position.

Then there is:

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:I would argue, however, that the Creator does so because he respects the independent integrity of his own creation, while Lord Foul does so because he's trapped within that creation, and indirection is required of him by the nature of his imprisonment. (If he could rouse the Worm himself and escape, he would have done it eons ago.)

(05/24/2006)

which seems more to indicate that Foul can't rouse the Worm directly, he needs to induce someone else to do it. But it's not clear if that means he literally can't rouse the Worm if he tries, or if it is because he knows rousing it himself won't help him. (Then SRD compares Foul to the Chained God, which points to the "literally can't" side.)

OK. Let's say that due to Joan being such a lunatic, she is incapable of using her rightfully owned ring to bust up the Arch. (Even though I think it’s stated many times that madness and white gold magic are similar, but that’s another issue.) I am not sure that her state of mind would disregard any legality of hers to handing over the ring. I can see Roger asking mommy dearest if she would like him to make the pain go away. All she has to do is hand over that little ring and her dear son Roger will make the bad old daddy go away forever. Manipulating her to hand over the ring is a different subject than forcibly taking the ring from someone unconsciously.

That’s why I think it’s Foul overplaying his hand (I liked the Poker analogy). Remember how the croyel told Esmer it wasn’t supposed to go this way in the Lost Deep? Little things like the Ur-vile manacles, Anele’s madness, and Gault’s last minute sacrifice are beyond Foul’s perception and go against his plans. His taste for total revenge is his fatal flaw. He would have been happy to slip out the back-door when TC was yanking on the Worms’s tale at the One Tree. But now it’s payback time in his mind. He is not content to just escape. It seems he can only be satiated with total despair from his enemies at this point.

I also think that this make sense from TC’s game-plan. As Time Warden he had the opportunity to view existing possibilities himself. He must have known the risks involved by having Linden bring him back out of the Arch. But he also knows Fouls tendency to jeopardize himself with his desire for retribution against his foes. That was the same game-plan he used when he handed over his ring to Foul in WGW. Foul had it won then until he blasted TC into the arch. TC is again gambling that Foul’s nature will continue to be his down fall.

At least part of Foul's plan must include the same old chestnut: Driving the white-gold wielder to use it and break the Arch, probably in fighting the Worm. He likely has other plans anticipating that might not work, though. She Who Must Not Be Named is part of the mechanism to drive Linden into that state, as is the manipulation of Jeremiah, the affliction of Longwrath, and the severe damage to the Arch by Joan, while not capable of destroying it, makes it more vulnerable than ever.

Murrin wrote:the affliction of Longwrath,

Not to beat a dead horse, but we don't know that Foul's the cause of this