Kevin's Watch

With all the positive buzz surrounding Marvel's The Avengers does it seem like DC/WB is missing the boat without their own blockbuster Justice League feature film?

At first glance you might think that getting your product to market as soon as possible would be the prudent thing to do in order to compete.
Think about it. Whenever you see a McDonalds go up isn't there a Burger King built across the street soon thereafter?

Pretty much from day one Marvel and DC have been like Coke and Pepsi, Ford and Chevrolet, NFC and AFC, Star Wars and Star Trek, Godzilla and Gamera, the old Soviet Space program and NASA, its all about competition and doing whatever it takes to keep the other guy from getting the upper hand.

Well last time I checked Marvel is ahead, WAY ahead and that doesn't serve healthy competition. You may cite Chris Nolan's Batman series as being the #1 superhero franchise in the world and you have good reason to bring that argument to the table however Batman is pretty much all that DC/WB has to work with at the moment. The Superman reboot failed. The recent Green Lantern film was a huge disappointment. And with Nolan/Bale leaving the Batman series there isn't much on the horizon brewing for good old DC except the Man of Steel feature.

Marvel on the other hand has all but cornered the market on superheroes and is poised to do so for the foreseeable future. Whether you agree that all of their recent films were top quality or not you can't debate the fact that Marvel has thrown a very large blanket over geekdom and you can't swing a defeated supervillain around without knocking over a kid with an Iron man t-shirt. (X-Men, Spider man, Iron man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Ghost...er...Rider...ugh, The Punisher-er, Fantastic *cough* Four, er...Daredevil....uh...Elektra...yeah I know its not exactly a flawless lineup.)

The question is: Can DC launch a counter attack that will even the score?

In my opinion the only way DC has a chance is to adopt the Marvel model.

Suppose for instance that DC decided to pull out all the stops and rush a Justice League feature into production as soon as possible, without establishing the less movie friendly characters in the JL lineup or giving their new stable of actors portraying Batman, Superman, Green Lantern a chance to grow into their roles. Never mind that something would have to be done about Wonder Woman, the Martian Manhunter, Cyborg and the Wonder Twins. (Heh. Forget about that last one.)
Its possible to make that all work without much of a running start but the film would be potentially bogged down with setting up origins and establishing the characters that haven't yet had their chance to be realized on the big screen.

If the new face of Batman is a relative unknown actor there might be real problems. Casting and establishing Wonder Woman has been a difficult prospect in the past and until it's done right none of us know what the character will be like after altering her to be movie friendly. Kind of reminds me of the challenge of realizing Captain America but it worked in the end.

I'm not at all sure what or how it will be done but I am sure there are lots of fans that are wondering the same thing that I am and hoping someone will come up with a solution that makes sense enough to justify the wait.

Tom

DC just has not been developing their characters on the big screen that much. Batman is good, but if they reboot that series again, who's going to care as much? That's the main problem with Superman. It's always Superman v. Lex Luthor/General Zod and people are always saying, hey, I've seen this before... a bazillion times. Why not headline a different Superman Villian like, say, Brainiac? And Zack Snyder? Really?

I haven't seen Green Lantern, but it seemed to me they were trying to be too much like Marvel (snarky dialogue, fun explosions, etc). Green Lantern also showcases another problem for DC: they do not control the public's conception of their characters like Marvel does. I mean, how often did you here, "But the Green Lantern's black!"

As far as movies on other characters, it might be hard to sell people on them. Let's look at Wonder Woman. Her costume is just ridiculous, one would need a very good movie to distract from that (See how Marvel dealt with Captain America). I don't know if the public will give DC a chance on the other characters until they prove themselves more (a Flash movie could be good, but how many people will think 'a guy that runs fast? That's the movie for me!')

In conclusion, DC is trying to adopt the Marvel formula and they are failing miserably and ignoring the most important part: having an actual plan. So aside from aTomic's suggestion that they take their time, I'd offer up the following:

1) Fire Zack Snyder
2) Never, ever, ever make an origin movie of Superman and Batman ever again.
3) Leave Batman alone. Build up your cred with other movies first. Hell, it might even be a good idea to never have Batman in another movie until JLA. It won't do to make contrasting comparisons easy.
4) Make more DC movies. The brand is just not out there. Batman is Batman in people's minds, they really do not associate it with DC.

I think trying to rush a Justice League movie would be a terrible idea, especially right now.

Superman Returns did not please the box office or the fans so they need to make sure to put out another Superman movie that recovers the franchise image and spirit. I actually liked it, but many people didn't.

I think the main problem with Green Lantern was that the producers decided to get someone "young and hot (as in popular)" rather than getting the right person for the part. Just recast the role with the right person, do a sequel, and let's see Sinestro and possibly Star Sapphire in action. There are multiple Lanterns, so we could even switch actors and say "John Stewart was the ring's second choice". hrm...if you really wanted to get the comic fans going then switch to Guy Gardner--that would be interesting.

DC should have done a Wonder Woman movie ages ago. You have to make sure to get the right screenwriter and the right actress, though; right now I can't think of anyone so I would have to look over some promo stills. For the screenwriter, they should get someone who knows how to write a really good story like Peter David or J. M. Straczynski.

To build up to a Justice League movie they would have to do a Flash movie. After the TV show why there hasn't been a movie is anyone's guess. Again, pick the right screenwriter and the right actor then put the movie into production.

They can get by without a Martian Manhunter movie; just put a little backstory into the main movie, perhaps linking the main plot with his backstory.

So...we are looking at 4 build-up movies; even if spaced out yearly we are looking at 2016 or 2017 before a Justice League movie is possible. This could be made sooner if we figure that enough of the audience knows the characters--seriously, are there movie fans in this country (or most countries, for that matter) who don't know who Flash and Green Lantern are?

Anyway...the point is that rushing would be disastrous. Get the best screenwriter possible, pick the right people for the parts, double down on the production budget and let it ride. If done correctly, the movie could be made for $350 million--possibly even as high as $500 million--but earn $1 billion at the box office. That would be a success, especially when you add in the merchandising sales.

So...if a JL movie were released in 2017, who should be cast for the parts? I presume the cast is the usual: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and possibly even Aquaman (who is no longer the Aquaman from the 60s and 70s). Who would the villain be? Probably Darkseid because I wouldn't recommend an Injustice Society/Secret Sociey/Legion of Doom.

Orlion wrote:1) Fire Zack Snyder
2) Never, ever, ever make an origin movie of Superman and Batman ever again.

I second these.

I don't really have a great grasp on how DC's finances are, but unless they are on their deathbed and need to make a last ditch effort, I don't think rushing a film would be at all a good idea. Should they work on it period? I would be interested.

There are multiple Lanterns, so we could even switch actors and say "John Stewart was the ring's second choice".

I don't think you even have to do it that way, maybe...I don't know anything about Green Lantern, but do you really have to release the movies chronologically?

3) Leave Batman alone. Build up your cred with other movies first. Hell, it might even be a good idea to never have Batman in another movie until JLA. It won't do to make contrasting comparisons easy.
4) Make more DC movies. The brand is just not out there. Batman is Batman in people's minds, they really do not associate it with DC.

I don't know about that. I have probably read about 2 or 3 american super hero comics in my life, but because of the batman animated series (really awesome btw) I was interested in the Justice League cartoon when it was around and, as a result, associate Batman with them. And in college, I didn't exactly run into a shortage of people around my age with a certain nostalgia for those shows. And the justice league cartoon was airing in middle or high school when we were supposed to be kind of scrapping those things! So, keeping Batman out of the JL might be a mistake.

At the same time, I think it would probably have to be a different Batman than the one they are currently running in film, so maybe you are right, and it's not such a great idea to have him involved in the justice league.

Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman are all well known so would be in a JLA film to bring in those fans.

but there are already multiple Flashes, Green Lanterns. so you could pick whomever you wanted for those.

but I agree that we don't need another origin story.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Nf-m6WGl4

do a movie like that and rake in the millions...

I would pay to watch a Martian Manhunter movie.

dw

DC is doing a great job with their cartoons. season two of Young Justice has created some heat by moving the series ahead in time by five years.

they have a racially diverse cast - which will allow for a wider spectrum of fans.

they are not being held to the comic continuity. it is a springboard but they are allowed to forge their own direction. slavish attention to the whims of fanboys is a surefire way to turn off new viewers.

First of all, for clarification, all the Marvel movies are not Marvel Produced. Marvel is only doing The Avengers, and the individual characters' movies that led up to The Avengers. X-Men, Fantastic Four and Spiderman (As well as Dare Devil and/or Ghost Rider) are Fox and Sony. So, you can't cross those universes or credit success/failure of this group with the Avengers and it's related movies, since Marvel sold off the Movie rights (Hence why Spiderman got rebooted so quickly, because if they didn't make a movie soon, the rights would revert back to Marvel)

Regarding DC, Superman Returns wasn't a failure as far as audience, it was burdened with absorbing the budget dollars spent on previous attempts to get a movie made after Christopher Reeves' 4 films. If those failed attempts to get off the ground, hadn't eaten up budget dollars, Superman Returns, very likely had good enough Box Office Sales to get a sequel. Green Lantern, I don't think Ryan Reynolds was miscast, I thought he did a great job, I believe the major problem Green Lantern had was being too slavish to Fan Boys, and trying to cram too much into it, instead of telling a straight forward "General Audience" type story. Christian Bale isn't interested in playing Batman in any more films after The Dark Knight Returns, so no worries there. There is plans in motion already to get moving on a new reboot of Batman as soon as Nolan's Batman clears the deck.

Man of Steel, actually is being overseen by Nolan. There's a good chance that Man of Steel could do well. If a Superman Movie does well, and a new Batman movie does well, I think that's enough to do a Justice League Movie, and then spin the other characters off after the Justice League Movie, while continuing with those current Superman and Batman Movies.

I used to be a superhero cartoon junkie but over time I've become annoyed with the style of animation that is relied upon to tell stories. The moment superhero animation shifts to CGI I'm back in. Clone Wars is great and shows how good things can look and how organic half hour CGI can be.
I'm not trying to be an animation snob but as good as cartoons are they just aren't good enough for me.

Every so often I pull out my Tick dvds but The Tick was different in that it was generally pretty offbeat and funny. The animation is pretty much the same as the current crop of superhero cartoons but its much easier for me to forgive when I'm busting a gut.

sindatur wrote:There is plans in motion already to get moving on a new reboot of Batman as soon as Nolan's Batman clears the deck.

Why? I, for one, am sick to death of Batman.

Honestly, he is probably the most overrated superhero in existence. Since we are talking about comic books/superheroes, if I were a telepath, even a low-power one, then I would purposely commit a crime to get caught by Batman then scan his mind. *poof* Instant media spread exposing his secret identity. This is why there aren't more telepaths around--too powerful and too difficult to guard against.

Or...hire a group of thugs to rob a warehouse then post a sniper 100 yards away. When Batman shows up, put a .50 caliber round in his skull--no more Batman. He couldn't possibly foresee that, no matter how intuitive or foresighted he is. For that matter, plant a couple of hundred pounds of explosives in the warehouse ahead of time, then pay some guys to rob it, and as soon as he goes in hit the detonator.

Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Dr. Midnight, Adam Strange...

DC could do some great films. they need to stop assuming every film has to be Batman or Superman.

sgt.null wrote:Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Dr. Midnight, Adam Strange...

DC could do some great films. they need to stop assuming every film has to be Batman or Superman.

Blue Beetle and Green Arrow, both have Pilots being prepared for TV Series. Green Arrow is looking like a real possibility, Blue Beetle, has been through some development hell, so, may not get off the ground.

sgt.null wrote:Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Dr. Midnight, Adam Strange...

DC could do some great films. they need to stop assuming every film has to be Batman or Superman.

Any films with those characters would be doomed before they even got off of the ground.

The problem with DC movies is their characters become figures of fun. Green Lantern is the best example of this. Ryan Reynolds was a HORRIBLE casting decision, but that aside, GL is one of the most tragic heroes in all of DC lore. The movie was a farce, one attempt at bad humor after another.

Superman films are the same. Lex Luthor is EVIL, a man full of hatred, yet the films always portray him as someone with a beef who is simply misunderstood.

Thank God for Chris Nolan and Heath Ledger, portraying Batman and Joker as serious characters. I can get my camp from Saturday morning cartoons. When I see live actions movies, I want these characters that I love to be taken seriously.

To me Justice League needs some fresh source material. Avengers just recently got The Ultimates.

As well my gut reaction is that the Justice League concept just isn't as interesting as The Avengers. The superheroes in Justice League are in charge of themselves/got their little space station and have so much power it's almost deus ex machina. They're also even bigger names than their Marvel counterparts. It's like a stale old supergroup whose members I think do better in their original setting.

It's just cartoonish to me.

Avengers is more grey/they have to deal with SHIELD and there's a sense of society giving them a hard time or at least commanding more presence over them in a way that reminded me of Watchmen.

I dunno. If they did a movie of Kingdom Come, that might be worthwhile. Thy need a fresh idea or otherwise Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman and friends banding together is pure overkill.

dlbpharmd : DC can release a few films to establish gravitas. they already blew Jonah Hex. movies by group meeting do not work.

so start over. Ragman. costar Onyx. use some Batman villains that are begging for development. in the right hands Getaway Genius and Black Spider would be awesome. use the new guy from the Suicide Squad, Savant.

start Blue Beetle with the death of Dan Garrett, Ted Kord takes over. flash forward to Ted's death, the Jaime takes over. you have already established the threat in the first ten minutes. love to see the Madmen onscreen.

There's just not a vast audience out there, Sarge, for the more obscure heroes and villains. Name recognition goes a long way, and I'd have to Wikipedia Blue Beetle before I even began to get excited about him in a movie.

Heck. Even Killer Croc hasn't shown up in a Batman film, and he's fairly well known compared to those guys you listed.

Ah well. Who knows. Maybe in future years.

The Arkham Asylum and Arkham City games have done a lot for Batman, and more importantly his villains, in the public eye, but Batman's not exactly in need of extra publicity.

I would have said Thor was a pretty obscure character to try and make a blockbuster movie out of, but they pulled it off. Mainly because they'd established a lot of credibility in superhero films over the last decade - including the Spider-Man films that weren't directly related to the Avengers franchise.

But DC could probably benefit from Marvel's efforts as well. If DC came out with a big movie that looked like a Marvel superhero film and was marketed in a similar way it might do just as well, because most of the public probably don't have a clue about the whole Marvel/DC divide. Green Lantern could have been that, but it needed to actually be good, too.