Kevin's Watch

Seems to me it was a pretty dumb idea of the Creator to offer Covenant a life in the Land at the end of TPTP. Best case scenario for Covenant, he lives in relative peace for a few decades, likely as a recluse in Andelain, then dies. Worst case and more likely scenario he's miserable, sickened by his heroic status, tormented by thoughts of Joan and Roger (now forever unreachable), and the cycle of Covenant-is-dick-to-those-around-him, people-forgive-Covenant-for-said-dickishness eventually drives him insane. Then he dies.

But the forecast for the Land looks even bleaker. Covenant dies loooong before he'll be needed to save the Land again, which leaves the beggar with just Linden Avery to rest his hopes on....unless he finds a replacement.

So, mental exercise: how can we replace TC in the Second Chrons? Is it even possible to do so and still defeat Foul? First off, I'm assuming the Creator still needs and recruits Linden Avery, and she still needs to do everything she does in the original story. So, we need someone who can emotionally support, and ideally fall in love with, LA off the bat. Unfortunately, that's the easy part.

It would also help if they were a white gold wielder. We know in the 2nd Chrons Linden can wield the white gold, both through TC and when she uses it to forge the SOL. Who else is a candidate? LC spoilers follow:

Spoiler

We know Joan can use her ring, and presumably if she was sane rather than the shattered wreck she is in RotE, she'd be able to control it. So just how special are the "real world" characters in the Land? Could anyone with a white gold piece of jewelry and an emotional connection with it go there and kick ass?

Of course, the real crux is the Timewarden status. That would seem unique to TC, as wielding the white gold and being the white gold are two different things. I doubt anyone else could have assumed the mantle of the Arch, which puts the good guys at a major disadvantage. Foul would have to be "reduced" some other way, which of course has happened before, but the Arch is left vulnerable whenever white gold enters the Land. Which admittedly isn't that often, but still.

One interesting possiblity: Roger.

Spoiler

Ignoring how he turned out in the LC,

what if he inherited TC's ring after TC presumably dies after spending a few years in a coma? He would have been with his crazy ass mother, but if the beggar needed him he could have fought Foul for influence over the two of them. He'd be pretty young for Linden, of course, but their bond could be of a different nature. And he'd have a pretty solid right to his father's ring.

Pretty far out speculation, I know, given how radically different it makes the story, but it seems to me the Creator would have had a major problem if TC had chosen to stay, yet it's unlikely he'd just give up when Foul returned.

(I think this topic is pretty heavy on the Final Chronicles sauce, even with what you spoilered. Would this thread be better served if moved to a different forum?)

I think that, if you want to play what-ifs, you need to go all in.

If Covenant had stayed in the Land, would nothing momentous ever happen to him again? Is retirement the only option? He seems like a lodestone to me... something would very likely have happened that involved the White Gold Weilder.

Part of the bargain with the Creator, at the end of TPTP, was that he would die in the real world if he stayed. We know that this is frought with implications. The him that stayed in the Land could have, would have, transcended in some way. He could quite likely become immortal relative to the people of the Land.

Imagine, then, Foul restoring himself over those thousands of years. Not only corrupting Earthpower, but also, maybe, corrupting white gold, and corrupting Covenant himself. With Covenant available like that, being subject to subtle manipulation for 3,500 years, wouldn't that be even worse than what did happen?

It may be that Covenant being away from the Land, and beyond Foul's reach, is part of what saves the Land a second time. (Covenant had said at one point that part of what makes him able to defeat Foul is that he hasn't lived with Foul so long that he assumes Foul is unbeatable.)

Maybe that's why the Creator needs someone from outside the Land in the first place.

But, to get to the question of, who could replace Covenant ... we would first need to ask, do we need a replacement? Either Covenant is still in the Land, or he has died. In the latter case -- who would end up with that white gold? The only person I could see Covenant leaving the white gold to is Mhoram, or the High Lord. (But it would be a very interesting story if Covenant met someone who he had thought deserved it more.)

I think I never realized this until now, but when Covenant was in the Land, with his ring, his body lay unconscious in the real word ... with his ring.

Two rings.

What would happen if someone picked up that real world ring, fell unconscious, and came to the Land? Would there be a two white gold rings in the Land, both doppleganging the one ring in the real world?

That's a weird question, isn't it? I am going to say, it can't happen. Just because I obstinately refuse to choose the other option, which leads to infinite white gold rings.

Therefore, Joan's ring is the only other answer, as Cambo says.

wayfriend wrote:(I think this topic is pretty heavy on the Final Chronicles sauce, even with what you spoilered. Would this thread be better served if moved to a different forum?)

Yeah, I'll ponder it. In all seriousness, I need to figure just how much a discussion of the Last Chronicles will is necessary/going to crop up. If I do move it, I'll let Cambo choose which of the forums to move it to (RotE, FR, or AATE).

Now, to a non-LC discussion:

Imagine, then, Foul restoring himself over those thousands of years. Not only corrupting Earthpower, but also, maybe, corrupting white gold, and corrupting Covenant himself. With Covenant available like that, being subject to subtle manipulation for 3,500 years, wouldn't that be even worse than what did happen?

I do not think Foul can corrupt white gold. Further, he can not seem to even touch wild magic without the ring.

I also think Covenant, in a sense, understand that Foul is 'unbeatable'. That's why he didn't blast the sucker at the end of tPtP, he believed that Foul would just come back stronger than ever.

Finally, the most important thing, I think, is that Covenant is the white gold. He is, in a sense, the door and key to wild magic. I think it's quite possible that he could refuse access to wild magic to everybody, if he wanted to. I don't think he would, though. Sure, Foul could keep trying to get it, but if he is merely trapped forever, Foul would still make the inhabitants of the Land as miserable as he could. Beauty would be destroyed.

So like Wayfriend, I believe that he would somehow find a way to transcend like he did at the end of the Second Chronicles, or at least close to it. I think that he could then endow however the bearer of the white gold would be with the ability to access wild magic, or he may just set up 'rules' for it.

I love what ifs!

TC agrees and the Creator sends him to the Land.
BUT!
To preserve the Arch and themselves the Elohim would intervene and take him away.
Perhaps Appoint someone to preserve/sustain Covenent's life.
High Lord Kevin lived almost a 1000 years sustained by earthpower.
Same with the Bloodguard.

Keeping him alive and fairly young by the time Foul created the Sunbane is very possible. Perhaps TC's perceived time for himself there was only a few years like in the real world

Have Linden come to the Land, for some reason, and make the story a quest to find TC who has been unknowingly imprisoned by the Elohim at Elemesnedene.
She's need some talisman or something to free the Haruchai..but I can't come up with everything. lol
Maybe no talisman, just Vain.
The Haruchai would definitely join in a quest to save TC and they wouldn't trust Linden if she was with Vain.

Most of the second Chronicles could play out the same as the original with very little tweaking.
But also very little TC until the middle.

Orlion wrote:

Imagine, then, Foul restoring himself over those thousands of years. Not only corrupting Earthpower, but also, maybe, corrupting white gold, and corrupting Covenant himself. With Covenant available like that, being subject to subtle manipulation for 3,500 years, wouldn't that be even worse than what did happen?

I do not think Foul can corrupt white gold. Further, he can not seem to even touch wild magic without the ring.

But didn't Foul do just that, with the venom? Covenant is mortal, human, weak. He can be attacked, he can be conquered. And through him, the white gold. Even if the wild magic itself is unassailable, we have seen Foul can manipulate it by manipulating Covenant.

And, to be a real noodge:

In [i]The Power That Preserves[/i] was wrote:"Fool!" he howled shrilly. "Groveler! It is I who rule here! Alone I am your rightful master-and I command the Stone! I will destroy you. You will not so much as touch me!"

As he yelled, he threw out a flare of force which struck Covenant's hand, embedded itself deep in the core of his ring. Amid its raging gale, the white gold was altered. Cold ill soaked into the metal, forced itself into the ring until all the argent had been violated by green.

So we have at least one occasion in which Foul could, indeed, attack white gold itself.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Have Linden come to the Land, for some reason

That's pretty much what people say already.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Most of the second Chronicles could play out the same as the original with very little tweaking.
But also very little TC until the middle.

I am willing to bet you that readers won't like that. Can you imagine if the Second Chronicles started out all about Linden with no Covenant? There'd be no end to the complaints Donaldson would get.

Orlion, I have no worries with this being moved to LC forums if you feel it's appropriate. I put it here cause I envisioned it would be mainly a re-imagining of the 2nd Chrons. But it's all good wherever it ends up.

Can't reply to people's ideas right now, but some of them are fascinating, so I'll be back!

I don't think that Covenant would spend his time regretful for not being able to find Joan and Roger. It's not like he spent his time after the end of the first chrons hunting them down (how would he have found them? did the terms of the divorce include a restraining order?). And Covenant's personality in the 2nd chrons when he has found Joan doesn't seem to indicate he is dependent on her - he's being strong for her.

I also don't think the dickishness would necessarily continue, since it's not really as prominent in the 2nd chrons IIRC.

As for finding another white gold wielder....IMO TC being the white gold means two things at least, maybe more (I haven't read 2nd chrons in a while). First - the white gold ring represents the commitment between individuals (SRD said he needed the ring as a symbol because of this). The ring was important to Covenant even after Joan divorced him, and Covenant didn't want to lose Joan (one of his self-stated moanings is "Joan, how could you give up everything!?" in response to her divorcing him). He held on to the ring like a talsiman until he ran into the beggar, and the beggar wanted him to hold onto it, and to his commitment. Two - the white gold represents his commitment not only to Joan, but to himself, in part because committing to the marriage with Joaan was because he loved her - committing to it was a commitment for his sake, and therefore a commitment to his well being. The beggar asks TC why he doesn't surrender to death/kill himself, and TC says "because it would be too easy."

Both TC's ability to commit to himself and to others is there as potential at the start of the book, but it takes the first and second chronicles to bring these abilities fully to bear - a tthe start of the series, his abilities in both categories are critically deficient. Theoretically, I think anyone else in a similar situation could make a possible WGW if TC wasn't there.

I'm not sure that either Roger or Joan, simply by virtue of being related, are good candidates.

Considering that the Creator knows Foul is still around, I suspect he wouldn't have offered to let Covenant stay in the Land if the Land absolutely required him as a defender in future years.

I think I never realized this until now, but when Covenant was in the Land, with his ring, his body lay unconscious in the real word ... with his ring.

Two rings.

I'm not sure it works like that. Wasn't it an instant in the real world before Linden came out?

Hey, do you have to wear the WG to use it? Can you juts hold it in your hand? Maybe you could split it into quarters, twist the quarters into rings, and have 4 mini WG rings!

High Lord Kevin lived almost a 1000 years sustained by earthpower.
Same with the Bloodguard.

Kevin had mastery of the 7 wards - or rather, he created the 7 wards based on his knowledge of earthpower. For all we know they don't even contain all his knowledge. And the new lords can't even master a single one. I'm pretty sure the super old and weak lords in LFB who died during the course of the story were under 100.

The bloodguard had the vow, and it seems to have guaranteed immunity to aging (it carried those like Bannor past Kevin's time and to the end of the new lords). And the vow is broken.

So we have at least one occasion in which Foul could, indeed, attack white gold itself.

But it also succeeded in fully cleansing itself, and I got the feeling from that part of the book that wild magic's power easily sufficed to do so.

Holsety wrote:

High Lord Kevin lived almost a 1000 years sustained by earthpower.
Same with the Bloodguard.

Kevin had mastery of the 7 wards - or rather, he created the 7 wards based on his knowledge of earthpower. For all we know they don't even contain all his knowledge. And the new lords can't even master a single one. I'm pretty sure the super old and weak lords in LFB who died during the course of the story were under 100.

The bloodguard had the vow, and it seems to have guaranteed immunity to aging (it carried those like Bannor past Kevin's time and to the end of the new lords). And the vow is broken.

You lost me with all this.
I gave two examples of how earthpower can extend lifespans to show how the Elohim could sustain TC if he were to remain in the Land at the end of tPtP.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Holsety wrote:

High Lord Kevin lived almost a 1000 years sustained by earthpower.
Same with the Bloodguard.

Kevin had mastery of the 7 wards - or rather, he created the 7 wards based on his knowledge of earthpower. For all we know they don't even contain all his knowledge. And the new lords can't even master a single one. I'm pretty sure the super old and weak lords in LFB who died during the course of the story were under 100.

The bloodguard had the vow, and it seems to have guaranteed immunity to aging (it carried those like Bannor past Kevin's time and to the end of the new lords). And the vow is broken.

You lost me with all this.
I gave two examples of how earthpower can extend lifespans to show how the Elohim could sustain TC if he were to remain in the Land at the end of tPtP.

OH.

I just saw the two examples, and I was basically trying to show why it isn't likely that those two things could extend covenant's life. I didn't realize it was related to the Elohim.

From what I remember of teh Elohim, I am not sure they would be very likely to do that of their own volition. And since the giants are gone, and won't be back for quite a while, I'm not sure how Covenant would get to them, if he even knew he should be looking for them.

But it's technically possible, so I suppose the books could have been written in such a way that the Elohim extended his life.