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Who Created the Sunbane?
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:57 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
Was it revealed in AATE who created the Sunbane? Lord Foul would be the assumed cause of it, but he really doesn't do anything except whisper in the ears of his henchmen.
If I had to guess at another Sunbane source, that would be the Elohim. But I don't want to talk about the whys and wherefores of that until I know the answer to the first question.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:18 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
I think it was stated pretty clearly in the 2nd Chron that Foul did it.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:27 pm
by Hashi Lebwohl
We are told through Covenant's vision in TWL that Lord Foul sought refuge at the roots of the Earthpower itself following his defeat and the conclusion of TPTP. Because the Staff of Law was broken, Foul's regrowth was able to cause the corruption of Earthpower that came to be known as the Sunbane. In that sense, we could say that he caused it himself even though it isn't something he did on purpose.
samadhi Sheol, though, created the Banefire and fed it for what was probalby centuries, making it bigger and increasing the rate at which the corruption occurred. Again, though, this was not something directly done by Foul which probably explains why he was able to use it to bring about his goals. Had he actually done any of that perversion on purpose then it might not have been effective or capable of accomplishing what he needed.
This is another case of SRD's idea that a tool is not useful if wielded directly (or not capable of doing something the user cannot do); a tool can only do what someone needs it to do if someone else does it or the tool does it on its own. Direct interference take away one's ability to accomplish anything.
Again, that is why Foul probably isn't doing anything at all here in the Last Chronicles--he knows not to. Kastenessen, Roger, The Masters, and formerly Joan were all doing his work for him without even being asked to do anything.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:42 pm
by Savor Dam
Welcome back, Worm!
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:10 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
Hi SD and all,
I generally don't revisit the Land in between books. So my memory needed refreshing on this point. But the Last Chrons got my mind twitching about those damnable Elohim and how they might be working behind the scenes, like Foul, to bring white gold to the Land except for completely opposite ends. And yet we're given the impression in the Second Chrons that the Elohim are completely self-absorbed beings who only take action when they themselves are threatened.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:34 am
by sgt.null
srd created the sunbane...
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:29 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
sgt.null wrote:srd created the sunbane...
Not literally.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:39 am
by sgt.null
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:sgt.null wrote:srd created the sunbane...
Not literally.
actually literally works as well as figuratively. thus the sunbane is real or not real depending on your belief.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:24 pm
by MsMary
High Lord Tolkien wrote:I think it was stated pretty clearly in the 2nd Chron that Foul did it.
This.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:37 pm
by wayfriend
Who can make a Sunbane,
Sprinkle it with rue?
Cover it with Riders, and a Raver-bee or two.
Lord Foul man ...
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:40 am
by sgt.null
wayfriend wrote: Who can make a Sunbane,
Sprinkle it with rue?
Cover it with Riders, and a Raver-bee or two.
Lord Foul man ...
excellent work...
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:22 am
by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm
wayfriend wrote: Who can make a Sunbane,
Sprinkle it with rue?
Cover it with Riders, and a Raver-bee or two.
Lord Foul man ...
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:10 am
by deer of the dawn
The Lord Foul man can
Cause he does it with Despite
And makes the Land look bad.
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:16 pm
by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm
Lovely)
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:21 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
theland.antgear.com/timeline.html
"Lord Foul unleashes the Sunbane on the Upper Land."
How? I know that the destruction of the Staff made it possible. But what made it actual? A magic spell?
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:24 pm
by Vraith
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:theland.antgear.com/timeline.html
"Lord Foul unleashes the Sunbane on the Upper Land."
How? I know that the destruction of the Staff made it possible. But what made it actual? A magic spell?
Many "spells." Every use of Earthpower that the Staff would have restricted corrupted, was a step...every bit of false-lore spread [like the Rede] made it worse. When a Raver achieved command, I suspect, it committed the actual act/ritual that brought the polluted streams together.
All speculation of course.
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:29 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
Vraith wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:theland.antgear.com/timeline.html
"Lord Foul unleashes the Sunbane on the Upper Land."
How? I know that the destruction of the Staff made it possible. But what made it actual? A magic spell?
Many "spells." Every use of Earthpower that the Staff would have restricted corrupted, was a step...every bit of false-lore spread [like the Rede] made it worse. When a Raver achieved command, I suspect, it committed the actual act/ritual that brought the polluted streams together.
All speculation of course.
So Foul's very presence at the heart the Land both enabled his revival and corrupted the Earthpower?
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:38 pm
by wayfriend
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:So Foul's very presence at the heart the Land both enabled his revival and corrupted the Earthpower?
That's what SRD says.
In [i]The Wounded Land[/i] was wrote:And the Staff had been destroyed.
That loss had weakened the very fiber of the Law. A crucial support was withdrawn, and the Law faltered.
From that seed grew both the Sunbane and the Clave.
[...] For when Covenant had defeated the Despiser, reduced him by wild magic and laughter to a poverty of spirit so complete that he could no longer remain corporeal, the Despiser had not died. Despite did not die. Fleeing the destruction of his Creche, he had hidden at the fringes of the one power potent enough to heal even him: the Earthpower itself.
And this was possible because the Staff had been destroyed. The Law which had limited him and resisted him since the creation of the earth had been weakened; and he was able to endure it while he conceived new strength, new being. And while he endured, he also corrupted. As he gained stature, the Law sickened.
[...] For the Staff of Law had been destroyed, and his hands were on the reins of nature. By degrees, mounting gradually over centuries, he inflicted his abhorrence upon the Land, corrupting the Earth-power with Sunbane. This he was able to do because the Clave had been made incapable of conceiving any true defense. The Banefire was not a defense, had never been a defense.
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:24 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
wayfriend wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:So Foul's very presence at the heart the Land both enabled his revival and corrupted the Earthpower?
That's what SRD says.
In [i]The Wounded Land[/i] was wrote:And the Staff had been destroyed.
That loss had weakened the very fiber of the Law. A crucial support was withdrawn, and the Law faltered.
From that seed grew both the Sunbane and the Clave.
[...] For when Covenant had defeated the Despiser, reduced him by wild magic and laughter to a poverty of spirit so complete that he could no longer remain corporeal, the Despiser had not died. Despite did not die. Fleeing the destruction of his Creche, he had hidden at the fringes of the one power potent enough to heal even him: the Earthpower itself.
And this was possible because the Staff had been destroyed. The Law which had limited him and resisted him since the creation of the earth had been weakened;
But only if Earthpower were first strengthened by the creation of a Staff. Or perhaps what SRD meant to say was that Earthpower lost one of its defenses. Because it certainly seem strong enough in the Second Chrons. The inability to corrupt Earthpower to such an extent as to create the Sunbane would qualify the Staff as a defender of Law. It can also be used as a corruptor of Law - blood moon and preternatural winter.
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:53 pm
by wayfriend
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:But only if Earthpower were first strengthened by the creation of a Staff.
I guess, in a way, it was. But it's also fair to say that Earthpower came to rely on the Staff. Either way, Earthpower suffered a blow when it was destroyed.
In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.
So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.
(12/20/2004)