Kevin's Watch

I have often wondered why the Lords were not able to master much of the first ward of Kevin's Lore.

After reading the newest Chronicles and now reading the first again, I think I have an idea however shadowy.

The new Lords swore an oath of peace. By swearing this they remove part of their ability to master darkness should it start to claim them. By restraining themselves they limit their ability to master that which would bring them knowledge.

Thoughts??

Didn't Morham learn much once he understood the Ritual of Desecration in the last of the first chronicles? The memory is vague as it is a while since I read them.

Mhoram worked out the basis of Kevin's Lore, and why the New Lord's couldn't use it: You had to accept the possibility of despair to be able to wield that power. The Oath of Peace prevented it.

And Covenant was given a vision in the Second Chronicles, I think when the Clave took his blood, that showed him what happened after - that Mhoram led the way in creating an entirely new Lore based around the Oath of Peace, that they were incredibly successful at it, at first.

I'm Murrin wrote:Mhoram worked out the basis of Kevin's Lore, and why the New Lord's couldn't use it: You had to accept the possibility of despair to be able to wield that power. The Oath of Peace prevented it.

And Covenant was given a vision in the Second Chronicles, I think when the Clave took his blood, that showed him what happened after - that Mhoram led the way in creating an entirely new Lore based around the Oath of Peace, that they were incredibly successful at it, at first.

Yep, right on. The only thing left out is that they were incredibly successful at first only because the Staff and essential Law were broken.

Matthew Lynne Mate wrote:The new Lords swore an oath of peace. By swearing this they remove part of their ability to master darkness should it start to claim them. By restraining themselves they limit their ability to master that which would bring them knowledge. Thoughts??

If you haven't discovered the Gradual Interview yet, you will find lots of Donaldso's thoughts and reasonings explained therein. For example, Donaldson explains the "problem" with the Oath of Peace.

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:Attempting to avoid the dangers which result when action is ruled by extreme emotion, the new Lords codified a moral principle in the form of the Oath of Peace. (It's the same principle Gichin Funakoshi proposed when he wrote, "If your hand goes forth, withhold your anger. If your anger goes forth, withhold your hand.") But every moral precept has its disadvantages--just as every strength is also a weakness. The advantage of the Oath of Peace was that it taught the people of the Land not to act on the basis of strong emotion. The disadvantage was, well, it taught the people of the Land not to act on the basis of strong emotion. In other words, it taught them to distrust strong emotions (of which there are too many to be covered by any one precept), and thus it left them without constructive outlets for their strong emotions. Mhoram's great insight was that strong emotions themselves are not the real problem: the real problem is the lack of constructive outlets.

(06/04/2004)

Of course, Donaldson never actually says that the Oath was a mistake, or was bad. He just points out that it is a strength in certain circumstances, and a weakness in certain circumstances. When it came to understanding Kevin's Wards, it was a weakness.

But in the end, Mhoram valued the Oath over the Wards, and chose the one over the other. Maybe he could not change what he was. Maybe he chose Peace over Power. But I think he intended to use his discovery to create a new kind of Lore that was as powerful as the old but was enhanced by, rather than obstructed by, the Oath of Peace.

If by "mastering darkness" you mean "finding a constructive, positive outlet for negative emotions", then I think your theory strikes the nail right on the head.

Thanks for the gradual interview quote.

Vraith wrote:

I'm Murrin wrote:Mhoram worked out the basis of Kevin's Lore, and why the New Lord's couldn't use it: You had to accept the possibility of despair to be able to wield that power. The Oath of Peace prevented it.

And Covenant was given a vision in the Second Chronicles, I think when the Clave took his blood, that showed him what happened after - that Mhoram led the way in creating an entirely new Lore based around the Oath of Peace, that they were incredibly successful at it, at first.

Yep, right on. The only thing left out is that they were incredibly successful at first only because the Staff and essential Law were broken.

Can you expand on that last sentance Vraith. I'm probably missing the point, but at the time of the first Chrons (at least at the point TC was 'called' to the Land) wasn't the staff intact in Drools hands and neither the Law of Life or Death broken. Wasn't it the breaking of the Staff of Law in the first Chrons that allowed the warping of the seasons by the Sunbane in the 2nd Chrons ( senior moment - I can't remember what happened to the first Staff of Law in the first Chrons but I know it was somwhow lost/broken before the 2nd because Linden/TC had to go off to the Isle of the One Tree to get a new one!)

The New Lords' successes in developing new Lore came after Mhoram's revelation and victory in TPTP - after Covenant burned the Staff of Law at the Collossus.

The reason for the Staff's destruction being so essential to the Second Chronicles was that somehow the shaping of the Staff by Berek had worked not just to use Law and Earthpower but to constrain it. Destroying the Staff removed those constraints, which had the effect of making it much easier for the Lords to find their new uses of power under Mhoram - but also made the Sunbane possible.

Definitely getting time for a re-read; for some reason I can't even recall the destruction of the staff by TC at the Collossus refered to below which is ridiculous (and boardering on scary ) for someone who has read the Chrons as often as I have!

Don't know quite how to put this without getting into spoiler terratory, but from what we know from the Last Chrons the Land pre-staff, was a place where seasonal order etc was pretty much as normal (I can't remember whether people could 'see' as in earth-power sight but I think not). The introduction of Earthpower, the Seven Words and the fashioning of the SOL from the wood of the one tree that occured at this time effectively set the Lords on the path to their culmination in the destructive acts of the Landwaster, after which the new Lords swore thier OoP and were thereby shackled from achieving the levels of understanding and hence practical power achieved by the old. The pre-staff world may not have been briming with Earthpower derived 'magic stuff', but neither does it seem to have been in a state of chaotic disorder by virtue of the staffs not having been created. In fact it seems rather....normal. It almost seems that it was the meddling around with the staff etc that while allowing great works of power to be achieved in it's presence, also alowed for lethal levels of dissorder once it was destroyed (ie no return to pre-staff nornality but chaos instead).

This will sound stupid Vraith, but where you say "..without the Staff..", do you mean the 'without the staff's existence after it's destruction by TC' or the 'without the staff because it had been lost in the ROD, but was still in existence waiting to be found by Foul/Drool(?). The 'without the Staff of pre-it's creation from the One-Tree' is presumably out since prior to this time there seemed to be no knowledge of Earthpower's existence and hence no 'building' at all done with it - not even of the lousy kind.

peter wrote: This will sound stupid Vraith, but where you say "..without the Staff..", do you mean the 'without the staff's existence after it's destruction by TC' or the 'without the staff because it had been lost in the ROD

Heh, I'm not at all sure that sounds stupid...but I meant the after its destruction one.
In significant ways the Staff doesn't limit what one can do...if it's doable with Earthpower, it is doable with the Staff...so much as HOW it must be done. It is as much about integrity of the system as the possibility of an action.
So, while it was "lost," it was still providing/enhancing integrity.
When it was destroyed...it wasn't.

Vraith wrote:

peter wrote: This will sound stupid Vraith, but where you say "..without the Staff..", do you mean the 'without the staff's existence after it's destruction by TC' or the 'without the staff because it had been lost in the ROD

Heh, I'm not at all sure that sounds stupid...but I meant the after its destruction one.
In significant ways the Staff doesn't limit what one can do...if it's doable with Earthpower, it is doable with the Staff...so much as HOW it must be done. It is as much about integrity of the system as the possibility of an action.
So, while it was "lost," it was still providing/enhancing integrity.
When it was destroyed...it wasn't.

Spoiler

True, but the time when it was *not* there (from when Linden retrieved it until she returned with it)...how is that different that it being destroyed? Isn't it still *absent* during that time and not in support of the Earthpower? Remember it's destruction fundamentally weakens the Earthpower.

Hey, long time no see!

rdhopeca wrote:

Vraith wrote:

peter wrote: This will sound stupid Vraith, but where you say "..without the Staff..", do you mean the 'without the staff's existence after it's destruction by TC' or the 'without the staff because it had been lost in the ROD

Heh, I'm not at all sure that sounds stupid...but I meant the after its destruction one.
In significant ways the Staff doesn't limit what one can do...if it's doable with Earthpower, it is doable with the Staff...so much as HOW it must be done. It is as much about integrity of the system as the possibility of an action.
So, while it was "lost," it was still providing/enhancing integrity.
When it was destroyed...it wasn't.

True, but the time when it was *not* there (from when Linden retrieved it until she returned with it)...how is that different that it being destroyed? Isn't it still *absent* during that time and not in support of the Earthpower? Remember it's destruction fundamentally weakens the Earthpower.

I've liked to think that SRD structured the 7 Wards on the idea of the Russian Doll. Which of course would mean that (Berek, Loric, Damelon, Kevin= 4) 3 members of the family of haven't been seen yet.

I often wondered why the Lords post Mhoram didn't restore the Staff after Bannor returned its remnants to them. Was it something they just didn't have the tools and/or knowledge to achieve? Or did they see as part of the tainted legacy of Kevin that had to be left behind?

The illusion that everything was all right was not theirs alone. Caerroil Wildwood was fooled as well according to Covenant's vision of the past. So did he too think the Staff of Law was not worth restoring? Maybe the Post Mhoram Lords weren't able to restore the Staff but him?

Rhod wrote:
True, but the time when it was *not* there (from when Linden retrieved it until she returned with it)...how is that different that it being destroyed? Isn't it still *absent* during that time and not in support of the Earthpower? Remember it's destruction fundamentally weakens the Earthpower.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I often wondered why the Lords post Mhoram didn't restore the Staff after Bannor returned its remnants to them. was it something they just didn't have the tools and/or knowledge to achieve? Or did they see as part of the tainted legacy of Kevin that had to be left behind?

The illusion that everything was all right was not theirs alone. Caerroil Wildwood was fooled as well according to Covenant's vision of the past. So did he too think the Staff of Law was not worth restoring? Maybe the Post Mhoram Lords weren't able to restore the Staff but him?

On some things, we're dealing with differences...for instance, Rhod moves into last chron's...but I can safely say the absence doesn't weaken, it amorphizes/nebulizes. And that's the NEW staff...made AFTER power was known AND Laws had been broken.
SS: there WERE no remnants except the heels, which are ordinary hunks of metal as far as we know...
Also...I think it's a combination of both the things you suggest. They didn't have the immediate knowledge to restore it or make something like it and it was obviously, if not "tainted," at least usable/neutral to things like the ROD that violated the Oath of Peace.
[it would be cool if someone could do a good job of a future earthpower following the Oath...but I think in the end it would fail, only in a slow rotting decline instead of a struggle]

My comments probably need to be spoilered. I'll tag my original one.

Sorry about that, forgot what forum I was in.

Interesting few posts for me in that they call to mind questions that have rumbled around unformed in my head for ages. For me by the end of the 1st Chrons Mhoram has equaled in statute if not surpassed any of the 'old Lords'. This is to an extent recognised in the adoption of his name by the Clave (I hated Mhorams association with *that* blood-soaked organisation) but elsewhere little is made of it. I have wondered about this.

Also the matter of the second Staff of Law. It is good to remember now and again that the staff is formed of two equal but opposit sentient beings. Is the Staff thus endowed with a form of sentience even after the transmogrification (:) how often do you get to use *that* word) of it's precursors. Or were Vain and Findail never living entities in the real sense at all. Presumably the encounter with the One Tree was absolutely neccessary as a further pre-requisite of the yet to occur transformation - or would it have occured even if they had never been anywhere near the One Tree. And what of the world pre the first staff's making. Was it just like a version of ours - ie no 'magic', or at least none that could be recognised as such by the inhabitants of the day.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I often wondered why the Lords post Mhoram didn't restore the Staff after Bannor returned its remnants to them. Was it something they just didn't have the tools and/or knowledge to achieve? Or did they see as part of the tainted legacy of Kevin that had to be left behind?

The illusion that everything was all right was not theirs alone. Caerroil Wildwood was fooled as well according to Covenant's vision of the past. So did he too think the Staff of Law was not worth restoring? Maybe the Post Mhoram Lords weren't able to restore the Staff but him?

Ever since the Second Chronicles I've been convinced that the Staff of Law was always to be corrupted through the use of the iron heels. Caerroil Wildwood would never have used iron, so why did the Old Lords?
Maybe the Old Lords needed to conduct electricity into the Staff to make the Earthpower more...ah...powerful! I really don't know

I'm sure the Lords wouldn't have been able to restore the Staff of Law without the Third Ward, as is shown in the Second Chronicles.

Good point.

Good point.