Thoughts on finishing the Gap books (spoilers)
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- Orlion
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Yeah, as essential as Angus was for the "good guys" to succeed, people just do not change dramatically. Angus is still Angus and the only "redeeming" development he had was that he may have felt bad for what he did to Morn.
And it took taking control completely from him to accomplish that.
Really, it says a lot more about Morn that she released Angus "for the good of humanity".
And it took taking control completely from him to accomplish that.
Really, it says a lot more about Morn that she released Angus "for the good of humanity".
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
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- Wosbald
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+JMJ+
But we're also told that had Angus lost his taste for cold-blooded murder. Another change he didn't recognize.
And this was after Warden told had told him I trust you [to handle Holt]. Just do what comes naturally. Perhaps, he trusts Angus to dispatch him in a way that doesn't betray his humanity? That he trusts him to strive for the better?
And we're told multiple times through the books that Holt's heart had long been dodgy and that it was palpitating at the time. Mayhap he had simply died of fright?
Perhaps.Orlion wrote:Yeah, as essential as Angus was for the "good guys" to succeed, people just do not change dramatically. Angus is still Angus and the only "redeeming" development he had was that he may have felt bad for what he did to Morn.
But we're also told that had Angus lost his taste for cold-blooded murder. Another change he didn't recognize.
And this was after Warden told had told him I trust you [to handle Holt]. Just do what comes naturally. Perhaps, he trusts Angus to dispatch him in a way that doesn't betray his humanity? That he trusts him to strive for the better?
And we're told multiple times through the books that Holt's heart had long been dodgy and that it was palpitating at the time. Mayhap he had simply died of fright?
- Hashi Lebwohl
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- Orlion
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Ah, ok. I had not remembered that detail, I blame not reading the series in yearsWosbald wrote:+JMJ+Perhaps.Orlion wrote:Yeah, as essential as Angus was for the "good guys" to succeed, people just do not change dramatically. Angus is still Angus and the only "redeeming" development he had was that he may have felt bad for what he did to Morn.
But we're also told that had Angus lost his taste for cold-blooded murder. Another change he didn't recognize.
And this was after Warden told had told him I trust you [to handle Holt]. Just do what comes naturally. Perhaps, he trusts Angus to dispatch him in a way that doesn't betray his humanity? That he trusts him to strive for the better?
And we're told multiple times through the books that Holt's heart had long been dodgy and that it was palpitating at the time. Mayhap he had simply died of fright?
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- Vraith
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Oh, you bet your bippy. Me too.Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I am not scared by many things but the sight of Angus Thermopylae standing over me would be on that short list.
Orl: as a general rule, peeps don't change that much. But there are exceptions.
And we can't forget just how MUCH of Angus has been changed, both body and brain physically, and THEN through radical experience on top of it.
Now, I don't much believe in redemption. [or--the desire/passion/need for it can be a great motivation/character driver, but it isn't a thing that is or can be.]
And I don't think Angus has suddenly become what you [or anyone] would call a nice guy...even if he wears a different color hat.
But he has made a new identity/self [that still includes the nasty shit he has been/done, and the ongoing costs of that].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- Savor Dam
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Ah, Hashi...yes, you in particular have ample justification for feeling that way.Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I am not scared by many things but the sight of Angus Thermopylae standing over me would be on that short list.
Spoiler
Remember, though, that you know there is one more keyword that will affect Angus. Ward used two of the three, but that last one might be your best bet should you be faced with Angus standing before you.
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
- MsMary
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Reading this thread makes me think I really need to re-read the series. I've forgotten so many of these details.
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- Hashi Lebwohl
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I wouldn't even be cute or sly about it, either, I would just say it and get it over with. Since Angus doesn't know the word he can't search through his datacore and try to blank it out.Savor Dam wrote: Ah, Hashi...yes, you in particular have ample justification for feeling that way.
The Tank is gone and now so am I.
- Savor Dam
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Aww, I am rather disappointed, Director. Ward did such an artful job weaving the keywords he used into an entirely credible speech...and you have a reputation for no less subtlety than what he has done.Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I wouldn't even be cute or sly about it, either, I would just say it and get it over with. Since Angus doesn't know the word he can't search through his datacore and try to blank it out.
Yes, I am playing to your ego.
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
- Wosbald
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+JMJ+
I do think it's indicated that he's started upon the road to the Better. But as you say, it will be his road, with all of his past baggage and his strengths/weaknesses.
Ya, ya. I don't think anyone's suggesting that Angus is suddenly ready for a stint in the Peace Corps.Vraith wrote:And I don't think Angus has suddenly become what you [or anyone] would call a nice guy...even if he wears a different color hat.Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I am not scared by many things but the sight of Angus Thermopylae standing over me would be on that short list.
But he has made a new identity/self [that still includes the nasty shit he has been/done, and the ongoing costs of that].
I do think it's indicated that he's started upon the road to the Better. But as you say, it will be his road, with all of his past baggage and his strengths/weaknesses.
- Vraith
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Yes...escaped the crib. But his ID will always be informed by the crib. [he also learned a bit about who becomes crib-makers, and why, and how---and such cribs, though in many ways different shapes, materials, and purposes also have essential similarities.wayfriend wrote:If you believe that Angus was ruled by fear because of the crib, and if you consider that escaping his datacore is tantamount to escaping the crib, then you can believe that Angus might no longer be ruled by fear, and so has lost the proclivity for self-service and evil.
Also, the crib may have sourced fear, self-service, and evil---
But what else was it a source for?
Determination.
Extravagance/extremity.
Survival.
Even the roots of compassion and justice.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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I think that by story's end, Angus will follow a good path (with some profit-making mixed in somewhere along the way). I say this because Angus has the freedom to conduct business with that useful ship he's gotten from Holt, business that need not be piracy. And he has reason not to anger the GCES, because he can intuitively feel that the fatal word for him is still known to the police.
This is exactly how I feel. The emotional investment in the Covenant series makes me prefer them though.Cagliostro wrote:I think it is a bit difficult to compare the two, as I think Covenant books strike at the heart, and the Gap strikes at the mind, and to a degree, the gut. While I loved the characters and the well crafted story, I never got emotionally invested like I did with Covenant.
Anyway, I finished the series a week ago and DAMN, the last two books were incredibly intense. So intense that I would usually go to bed at 4-5 in the morning because I just couldn't stop reading.
I loved the ending. I was a bit dissapointed however with Morn "forgiving" Angus (in a sense), although it was critical in order for her to find "a better answer". Angus redeemed himself as much as he could, but he still started off and still is irredeemable in my book for what he did.
Besides that, everything was great. The GCES council storyline was so captivating that I even read ahead, skipping past a few of the chapters from Punisher. Dios is an amazing character and I was very pleased that his master plan succeeded in the end.
All in all, I think the series is superbly written and its plot/characters are very complex. I still prefer the Chronicles books, for I love Covenant and the Land (there were way too many scenes which made me emotional), yet the Gap series managed to amaze me nonetheless.
- StevieG
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I remember skipping work to finish the Gap
I actually found the Chronicles more draining than the Gap series. The Gap was intense, exciting, brutal, intriguing, and definitely had emotional parts, whereas the chrons were emotionally draining, and not always in a good way. It's hard to compare because they are so different in every way.
I actually found the Chronicles more draining than the Gap series. The Gap was intense, exciting, brutal, intriguing, and definitely had emotional parts, whereas the chrons were emotionally draining, and not always in a good way. It's hard to compare because they are so different in every way.
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- StevieG
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Rob, I still remember when you read the series - at the speed of light from memory! I'm definitely going to do a re-read after I finish my current Iain Banks book. That's settled!rdhopeca wrote:I could not put down the last 3 Gap books. Maybe it's time for a re-read...
Hugs and sh!t ~ lucimay
I think you're right ~ TheFallen
I think you're right ~ TheFallen