Kevin's Watch

What could Linden have done in the 2nd Chrons to make the Third Chrons not happen and also preserve the Earth? What did she do wrong to make the Third Chrons necessary and Foul's return (and probable triumph) inevitable?

Surely in the end there's going to be a redemption tale involving Linden's constant bungling?

What was the Creator's original role for Linden in the Second? Was it simply to protect Covenant until he could yield white gold over to the Elohim, after which they live happily ever after in Elemesnedene?

The unsolved problems presented in the 2nd chronicles were:

1) Kestenessen and the Skurj. Findail relates his story to the company during their travels and this plot hook is left hanging. From what Anele tells us of his early history it seemed to me that he was meant to address this problem but Joan and her Caesures circumvented him from this path. His connection to stone and seeking obscure dire threats to his world fit like a glove to the Skurj's anti-stone and Earthpower nature.

2) Covenant's former family. In theory his sacrifice during the start of tWL should have freed Joan and given her a new chance at life but if you think about it he didn't really address any of his issues with his former wife (or his son, which he made no effort to contact, not while he was alone nor when his mother was chained in his cabin suffering!).

What he did was free her from a hostage situation initiated by his enemy. Noble, sure, but it did nothing to address the underlying issues they had that had nothing to do with Foul or the Land. If anything, what he did only deepened the chasm between them. He was saying 'See, I don't abandon you when you're in trouble. I'm so much better than you.'

Covenant has many fine qualities but his resentment against his wife and ignoring of his son can very well be the biggest cause for what is happening in the 3rd Chronicles.

As for Linden, she did give Joan her ring to calm her from time to time thus enabling her to create Caesures for all those centuries. An interesting question is whether Linden's presence might actually have worsened Joan's condition, if Joan intuited or was made aware of the secret romantic relationship Linden had with her husband. Would it not have been better for someone else, who didn't have such a relationship with Covenant to care for her?

On another level we might ask ourselves how beneficial her treatment of Joan and the others really was. Linden had privileged knowledge about the underlying causes of Joan and the others' hurts, both in the real world and the Land but her approach was to give them their space mainly, hoping they'll manage to heal their minds by themselves if she and the rest of the community gave them enough care and affection. Was this the correct approach? We see that they remained as they were or at most only marginally improved. Talking to them about their guilt and misguided (former?) beliefs might have been more to the point. Perhaps cracking open Covenant's book and reading from it to them. Giving them a chance to do good (to have some degree of agency) instead of tying them up in pretty rooms is another option Linden ignores. Or if she believed the cause was truly supernatural, maybe hiring an exorcist to try and drive Foul out of them.

3) Other lesser problems of the Land are:

a. The Worm - we learn that the journey to the One Tree isle was superfluous for the most part. Maybe if they had caused less mayhem there the Worm wouldn't have woken so easily.

(Could Linden have healed Covenant when he send her from the OTi to his real body using her powers from the Land? She was sort of in-between worlds in that scene and might have carried her magical powers over with her. Not that this necessarily would have improved anything, might even have made things much worse)

b. Nom and the raver-shards - in the last chronicles we learn that the shards corrupted the sandgorgons that carry them to some degree. Nom, while powerful, is an innocent being that has no deep understanding of what the ravers are. It should have been Covenant's (and the others to a lesser degree) to warn him of the dangers of corruption the shard represented to him. But they assumed his physical fortitude meant that he could not be endangered by mental attacks.

c. The people of the Land - the company can be blamed for the near annihilation of the population of the Land during their trip to the One Tree. This in turn may well have enabled the subsequent takeover by the Masters after Sunder and Hollian pass away.

d. Failure to enlighten various groups in the Land's world - Elohim, Cavewights, maybe Haruchai.

e. The war between the Ur-viles and Waynhim, squarely Covenant's fault. The army of Sunbane-turned Ur-viles was probably created during or shortly after this war from the demondim spawn that were out in the fields instead of in their sunless underground caverns.

What could Linden (or Covenant) have done in the Land during the 2nd Chrons to stop LF and prevent him permanently from coming back?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:What could Linden (or Covenant) have done in the Land during the 2nd Chrons to stop LF and prevent him permanently from coming back?

see above?

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:What could Linden (or Covenant) have done in the Land during the 2nd Chrons to stop LF and prevent him permanently from coming back?

see above?

I searched your reply for a direct answer. It reads like "The 3rd Chrons was made possible by Linden loaning Joan a white gold ring." But Joan was possessed by a Raver at the time, and that possession wouldn't have been possible unless something had gone drastically wrong during the events of the 2nd Chrons. So wrong, in fact, that the Creator has been forced to abandon his Creation like a mother sending her only child to live on the streets.

It also looks like you're trying to place some of the blame on Covenant. But no matter how squarely the blame for those events can be placed on his shoulders, they did not bring LF back to plague the Earth once again. And some of the TC stuff you mention is debatable, worthy of separate thread discussions for sure, but not applicable to Linden's choices in the Second. For example:

"In theory his sacrifice during the start of tWL should have freed Joan and given her a new chance at life but if you think about it he didn't really address any of his issues with his former wife..."

That should be called the "loose threads" theory. It could have remained loose because no matter how many such psycho-drama threads were left untied, a 3rd Chrons would not have been possible (or interesting) without LF as the main villain.

You entitled point 3 "lesser problems." However, I don't see where you actually mentioned any great problems before that. For example:

"c. The people of the Land - the company can be blamed for the near annihilation of the population of the Land during their trip to the One Tree. This in turn may well have enabled the subsequent takeover by the Masters after Sunder and Hollian pass away."

That is debatable. And while Donaldson could have written a 3rd Chrons centered around such issues, without LF in the mix it would not have been a very good idea.

Are you asking why LF wasn't obliterated at the end of the 2nd Chronicles (or the end of the 1st for that matter)? Someone (maybe Amok?) in the 1st chronicles says that Foul cannot be killed without destroying Creation because he's a timeless beings and so is infused throughout the Creation's entire timeline. Beside that, something like that wouldn't fit Donaldson's story and characters.

So what's left? Making Foul's opposition wholesome enough that he can't find a mar to exploit to bring everything down. In the brief history of the Land's world given at the start of AATE we see Foul vainly trying to wreck things for millenia and failing because this world is so good and perfect, so we know my proposal is feasible in theory. That is basically what I outlined in the first post. What could the characters do to make Foul's prison and the white gold's homeland more wholesome and stronger?

I pointed out that without Kestenessen and his Skruj on the one hand and the group he possessed in Covenant's world, mainly Joan, her son and Jeremiah, Foul wouldn't have been able to create the world threat he did in the 3rd Chronicles.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Are you asking why LF wasn't obliterated at the end of the 2nd Chronicles (or the end of the 1st for that matter)? Someone (maybe Amok?) in the 1st chronicles says that Foul cannot be killed without destroying Creation because he's a timeless beings and so is infused throughout the Creation's entire timeline. Beside that, something like that wouldn't fit Donaldson's story and characters.

So what's left? Making Foul's opposition wholesome enough that he can't find a mar to exploit to bring everything down. In the brief history of the Land's world given at the start of AATE we see Foul vainly trying to wreck things for millenia and failing because this world is so good and perfect, so we know my proposal is feasible in theory. That is basically what I outlined in the first post. What could the characters do to make Foul's prison and the white gold's homeland more wholesome and stronger?

I pointed out that without Kestenessen and his Skruj on the one hand and the group he possessed in Covenant's world, mainly Joan, her son and Jeremiah, Foul wouldn't have been able to create the world threat he did in the 3rd Chronicles.

Perhaps my question should be: What would the Elohim have done with white gold if they managed to acquire Covenant's ring without coercion in the Second Chrons? Make the Land and the entire Earth "more wholesome
and stronger" - forever and ever.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Are you asking why LF wasn't obliterated at the end of the 2nd Chronicles (or the end of the 1st for that matter)? Someone (maybe Amok?) in the 1st chronicles says that Foul cannot be killed without destroying Creation because he's a timeless beings and so is infused throughout the Creation's entire timeline. Beside that, something like that wouldn't fit Donaldson's story and characters.

So what's left? Making Foul's opposition wholesome enough that he can't find a mar to exploit to bring everything down. In the brief history of the Land's world given at the start of AATE we see Foul vainly trying to wreck things for millenia and failing because this world is so good and perfect, so we know my proposal is feasible in theory. That is basically what I outlined in the first post. What could the characters do to make Foul's prison and the white gold's homeland more wholesome and stronger?

I pointed out that without Kestenessen and his Skruj on the one hand and the group he possessed in Covenant's world, mainly Joan, her son and Jeremiah, Foul wouldn't have been able to create the world threat he did in the 3rd Chronicles.

Perhaps my question should be: What would the Elohim have done with white gold if they managed to acquire Covenant's ring without coercion in the Second Chrons? Make the Land and the entire Earth "more wholesome
and stronger" - forever and ever.

The implication in tOT was that the Elohim were tainted by the taint Foul cast on the world's earthpower and therefore unfit to wield the White Gold for the good of all.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Are you asking why LF wasn't obliterated at the end of the 2nd Chronicles (or the end of the 1st for that matter)? Someone (maybe Amok?) in the 1st chronicles says that Foul cannot be killed without destroying Creation because he's a timeless beings and so is infused throughout the Creation's entire timeline. Beside that, something like that wouldn't fit Donaldson's story and characters.

So what's left? Making Foul's opposition wholesome enough that he can't find a mar to exploit to bring everything down. In the brief history of the Land's world given at the start of AATE we see Foul vainly trying to wreck things for millenia and failing because this world is so good and perfect, so we know my proposal is feasible in theory. That is basically what I outlined in the first post. What could the characters do to make Foul's prison and the white gold's homeland more wholesome and stronger?

I pointed out that without Kestenessen and his Skruj on the one hand and the group he possessed in Covenant's world, mainly Joan, her son and Jeremiah, Foul wouldn't have been able to create the world threat he did in the 3rd Chronicles.

Perhaps my question should be: What would the Elohim have done with white gold if they managed to acquire Covenant's ring without coercion in the Second Chrons? Make the Land and the entire Earth "more wholesome
and stronger" - forever and ever.

The implication in tOT was that the Elohim were tainted by the taint Foul cast on the world's earthpower and therefore unfit to wield the White Gold for the good of all.

How did Donaldson imply that the Elohim were tainted? They've always been narcissistic, so it can't be that. Then there's the shadow on the heart of the Elohim. What kind of harm could possibly come to the Earth by giving the Elohim white gold?

But my real question is this: What plan had the Creator devised before the Second Chrons, and would it have succeeded against Foul? It just seems like things didn't go according to plan. Reducing Foul wasn't the answer, killing Foul is impossible because he's immortal (or whatever reason you mentioned).

The only accomplishment gained by giving the white gold to the Elohim would be to take it out of play. I'm assuming that the Elohim could not actually make use of white gold, as its very nature is inimical to them.
It would be like arming an ice cube with a hair dryer.

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:The only accomplishment gained by giving the white gold to the Elohim would be to take it out of play. I'm assuming that the Elohim could not actually make use of white gold, as its very nature is inimical to them.
It would be like arming an ice cube with a hair dryer.

I'm fairly certain they could use it, assuming they didn't lie about being able to make the Earth into a paradise with it. At the very least they could keep it out of Foul's hands. But I realize it wouldn't have made for a very good book:

---

Covenant tore the white gold ring from his half-hand and swung it toward Findail.

"Here. Take it. I don't want it any more. If you are what you say you are, I hope you can use it to save the Earth. Because I can't."

Findail gracefully took the ring into his right hand. Grinning, he bowed and said, "Thank you, Ringwielder! The Elohim are eternally grateful for your gift of white gold!"

Then he vanished.

The wind from the movement of Starfare's Gem ruffled the hair on Covenant's forehead. The whistling of the wind only served to heighten the silence of the moment. Turning to Linden, Covenant quickly stuffed his hands into his pockets and growled,

"Ok, now what?"

---

I realize that this isn't a plausible scenario, and that Covenant was out of reach at that part of the story. But I think there is a certain reticence here toward thinking in the direction of "what if?" in such a way as to ruin a really good tale.

I think that we have enough internal evidence, especially from TOT, that the only thing that the Elohim would have done with it, assuming that they could use it at all, is to make the Earth, and therefore them, secure from destruction, but the rest of the world would have become a living hell under the hands of Foul. Without the white gold, Foul cannot destroy the Arch. He may destroy the Earth without destroying the Arch, but then he is trapped. So, if the Elohim had the white gold, they may be able to preserve the Earth, but what is outside of Elemesnedene would be blasted.

Now I need more caffeine.

SkurjMaster wrote:I think that we have enough internal evidence, especially from TOT, that the only thing that the Elohim would have done with it, assuming that they could use it at all, is to make the Earth, and therefore them, secure from destruction, but the rest of the world would have become a living hell under the hands of Foul. Without the white gold, Foul cannot destroy the Arch. He may destroy the Earth without destroying the Arch, but then he is trapped. So, if the Elohim had the white gold, they may be able to preserve the Earth, but what is outside of Elemesnedene would be blasted.

Now I need more caffeine.

By "secure from destruction" are you referring to rousing the Worm?

Is rousing the Worm the ONLY way to destroy the Earth? Also, and this may be more appropriate in another thread, if the Sunbane had continued, would that have roused the Worm? Also, wasn't the Worm going to wake up eventually?

One more question: Have we missed anything in the Soothtell of the Second Chrons that sheds light on the question of this thread?

I doubt the Sunbane would have aroused the Worm, since it's an expression of Earthpower.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:What could Linden have done in the 2nd Chrons to make the Third Chrons not happen and also preserve the Earth? What did she do wrong to make the Third Chrons necessary and Foul's return (and probable triumph) inevitable?

I don't think there is anything she could have done. Kastenessen was still going to alter himself so that he could escape his Durance and Roger was going to come looking for his father's ring. She probably shouldn't have given Joan back her ring, though, but there is no way she could have known that Joan was translating herself (or being translated). Foul was going to return eventually, anyway, because he is part of the fundamental nature of the Land as it exists.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:What was the Creator's original role for Linden in the Second? Was it simply to protect Covenant until he could yield white gold over to the Elohim, after which they live happily ever after in Elemesnedene?

She fulfilled the role for which she was Chosen--she taught the New Staff of Law what "health" is and she absorbed the Sunbane into herself to cleanse the Earthpower. Technically, the existence of the New Staff and the extinguishing of the Banefire would have caused the Sunbane to end on its own, but this would have taken a millenium or more before the Earthpower returned to balance.

This is The Land--there is no such thing as "happily ever after". All that exists is "cling to what beauty exists while it exists then cling to its memory once it is gone".

I'd say that the biggest mistake, was bringing Hoolian back to life., thus breaking the Law of Life.

Yeah, it was a Forrestal who proposed it, but a Forrestal who in his final moments of being a human was in love with the person who broke the Law of Death. Seeing a heart broken Sunder in love with Hoolian, knowing that laws can be broken he made the proposal that changed everything. Really, the juxtaposition between Sunder and Hile Troy at that moment is pretty massive. Hile wanted to use the Ring to Save Elena, but his oath to the Forestal prevented him. He made sure that wasn't going to happen to Sunder.

Had Hoolian died; Perhaps Sunder would have continued his work, perhaps it would have gone to another.When he received the newly forged Staff, the Earthpower itself may have helped heal his broken heart. Anele wouldn't have been born...and the Staff (Presumably) would not have been lost.

Linden, being a doctor, knowing that death is inevitable, should have stepped in to prevent this. She had enough Health-Sense to know that breaking the Law of Life would have severe consequences.

Covenant's mistake was his telling the Haruchai to preserve Revelstone and serve the Land.
He knew the Haruchai far too well, and knew how they only deal in absolutes. He also knew how much faith they put into him and that they would take whatever he said to the letter, and kinda screw it all up. The way that the Vow of the Bloodguard did. Remember how it was the power of their Vow that attracted the Lurker of the Sarengrave?

Ideally, in my opinion, if the Land was going to ready for the Skurj and Kasstenessen, and the Worm, and even possibly Joan's ceasures; Hoolian should have been left to die, and once Sunder's grieving had been abated (Even if it took years) the Haruchai (Under Covenant's suggestion) and him should have worked together to heal, and then strengthen the Land. Sunder would have found followers who would have carried on his work; rather than the Staff, at it's responsibilities, being a hereditary gift.

If that had have happened, at least the Law of Life would have been preserved, making the Law of Time more difficult to break. Caer Caveral would have lived on as the Forrestal, and perhaps as new forests emerged without the Sunbane, new Forrestals could have come into existence. Also the Krill would have been around, not lodged into a tree.

With the Law of Life still preserved, Covenant would still have sacrificed himself, but would not have been able to rouse whatever it was from Drool Rockworm's tomb. It's possible that the broken Law of Life also preserved Cail enough when he gave himself to the Merewives. With it preserved, he would have drowned, thus Esmer would not have been born.

If the Law of Life was't broken, then Covenant would not have been able to intercede between Foul and the Arch, and the Arch would have been destroyed: Foul wins.

The Law of Life has to be viewed as a necessary sacrifice. The kind that if you can't bring yourself to make it, you can't win.

I believe Kastanessen is the most important factor in bringing about the events of the 3rd Chronicles.

wayfriend wrote:If the Law of Life was't broken, then Covenant would not have been able to intercede between Foul and the Arch, and the Arch would have been destroyed: Foul wins.

The Law of Life has to be viewed as a necessary sacrifice. The kind that if you can't bring yourself to make it, you can't win.

Agreed.
Drew, that's a nice, well-thought projection to the future you created there.
But I don't think it would work out that way.
The Law allows...actually supports...resistance to LF. But it also forbids the elimination/excising of him. Like some cancers, a healthy lifestyle and drugs can hold it back, but that's a losing battle...in the end the disease wins...unless you're willing to risk it all...violate and damage and perhaps die...by ripping the body open and cutting the disease out.