Kevin's Watch

All power in the Land seems to stem from the 'earthpower' which has as it's source 'the blood of the earth' flowing under Melenkurion Skyweir. This seeps into the very ground of the Land and suffuses into everything of the earth - the wood, the stone and indeed beyond that, into the very people themselves in the form of their 'earthsight' etc.

But what of the World beyond the Land - indeed even in the further reaches of the Land itself. I always got the impression that the Land below Landsdrop was in some way qualitatively different to the Land above it. The Sarangrave if I remember rightly was the product of the power of the blood of the earth carried through the corrupting influence of the banes under Mount Thunder.

From where does the power of Elemesnedene come, or that of the Giants, the Brathair or the One Tree itself. Are there scources of Power in the World other than earthpower, or does earthpower rise to the surface in other parts of the World than under Melenkurion Skyweir?

No doubt this question has been adressed before but with some new faces perhaps we may get some new perspectives on this (as well as reminding those of us whose last re-read has been much longer ago than it should have been ).

Good points, peter! (BTW, why the new name?)

I have always thought that Seareach was not in the Land proper and didn't share in the earthpowerfullness of the Land itself. I think that your idea about Melenkurion Skyweir and Earthblood have merit, but there is obviously earthpower all through the Land. Did it not first rise for Berek on the slopes of Mount Thunder? Wasn't there hurtloam all over the Land. Consider also the Wraiths, Andelain, the Forestals etc.

The geographical structure of the Land with the balancing (and opposing) forces of Melenkuriuon Skyweir on one side, Mount Thunder on the other; Revelstone at one end, Foul's Creche at the other, seems quite deliberate on SRD's part. That Fouls inhabits and torments the Land and not other parts of the world would seem another indication of its importance.

In The One Tree (I'm just finishing a reread of the first two Chrons ) the Search comes to the Land because Seadreamer has seen that the Sunbane threatens to rive the whole world. Similarly the Elohim are aware of the danger. But these are not the only dangers to the world as Kastenessen's fate shows, (and the croyel and Kasreyn) so its not quite clear whether Foul limits his depredations only to the Land or whether he's is also at work more widely in the world.

There are also other powers like the Sandgorgons and the Nicor; are these manifestations of earthpower? Is the Giants' lore: stone wiving, diamondraught, clingor? Is the ur-viles' and waynhim' lore? The waynhim speak of their Weird, the Elohim call themselves the Wurd of the Earth; are these simply other names for earthpower?

I've ended up with more questions than I started with

u.

The Creator created "the world" that the land is in, therefore wouldn't the other parts of the world, other than "the Land" be the same? Linden's sight, helped by earthpower(?), didn't fail in Brathairain or Elmesnedene, or on the sea between bits of land. On the other hand, it didn't fail either when there was no earthpower to help it under the sunbane. I thought the Elohim were "earthpower personified"?

Yes, Io, the Elohim are that. And earthpower is everywhere. It just appears that there are "hot spots" like the Land, the Isle of the One Tree, Elemesnedene...I think the Sandies are expressions of raw Earthpower?? And it seems there is some connection, even if distant/indirect between the Haruchai and earthpower. IIRC, the Sunbane corruption would eventually reach the heart of the world [which may have been the Worm...maybe] and corrupt that, then spread everywhere].
But there are other powers, even without Last Chron's spoilers: The illearth stone isn't earthpower, nor the croyel's, nor the Kemper's? I think he knew at least some of his magic before he bonded with the croyel. Viles/demondim/ur-viles/waynhim all are called "unnatural" I think...which suggests their power/lore isn't earthpower-related.
And, of course, Wild Magic. TC/White Gold were needed to "key" it...but the power itself "graven in every rock." {which, BTW, is how, in combination with Prophets/Visionaries/Seers, the lore-wise inhabitants of the world could know about it before TC/White Gold ever arrived in the world}.

ussi: apparently peter chose that name to recognize a special insight I had into his nature...

If this thread was moved to the Third Chrons we could all say a lot more I think. We are somewhat restricted in the 2nd Chrons.

Interesting topic, Peter.

About the Blood of the Earth, I think it was stated (in tIEW) that Melenkurion is not the source of Earthpower, or even the Blood. It's just that this mountain is so tall and narrow that the pressure it puts on the earth beneath it is enough to squeeze out it's essence.

So Earthpower is everywhere in the Land's world but, through pretty mundane means, concentrated pure earthpower is made from the earth under Melenkurion Skyweir.

As for Mount Thunder, the books always say that the pollution that created Sarangrave is the product of the Demondim spawn sewer system and, maybe, the Banes buried beneath it. The essence from Melenkurion is very diluted by the time it reaches Mount Thunder. The region that benefits from the Blood's power is Garroting Deep.

Thanks for the responses guys - sorry for the brevity of this one but I seem to be struggling to post today. This is my third atempt.

Yes U. - Vraith has me pretty well nailed down so I honoured him with a (temporary!) name change for 1 month (ish).

re the demondim efluence Shoe - is it not the corrupting effect of this on the power already in the water etc that results in the Sarangrave, or is it an effect of it's own right. I'm not sure but would the demondim not actually be using earthpower themselves to effect thier works as U. asks above.

Why indeed does Foul concentrate of the Land when he has the whole World to play with - is it his acess to earthpower combined with his perception of the weakness (and lack of longevity) of humans compered to say Giants, Haruchai or Elohim. Why indeed not attack the One Tree directly and rouse the Worm. Clearly he is constrained in some ways from doing this but his reach does seem in retrospect strangely limited.

re Moving the thread - thats fine by me if the mods think it sits better elsewhere.

It's just that there are more clues about earthpower in the 3rd Chrons that can't be discussed here.

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:Here's how I look at it: the Land is the main "arena" for a struggle which obviously has implications for the entire Earth. Clearly there are important side-struggles taking place elsewhere (I'm thinking of the peril Kastenessen was Appointed to stop). But clearly, also, unique beings like the Elohim are aware of the Land and Lord Foul. And the first six books hint in various ways that Earthpower (while arguably universal) flows closer to the surface, or is more accessible, in the Land than elsewhere. Hence the Land has become the main battleground.

(04/29/2004)

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:I've often referred to the Land as an "arena." And I suggested recently in this interview that Earthpower flows closer to the surface in the Land than elsewhere. Naturally Lord Foul would be drawn there. BUT. A close reading of the first six books reveals that LF came to the Land from elsewhere in the Earth...

(11/18/2004)

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:There's more than one way to look at why the Dead only appear in Andelain; but the crucial point is that their appearance is in some sense a manifestation of Earthpower (Law-ful or otherwise). I think of it this way: Earthpower flows closer to the surface in Andelain than elsewhere.

(03/03/2006)

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:The Land is a region on a globe in the same way that, say, Greece is region on a globe. The Land happens to be isolated on every side, the sea to the east and rugged mountains everywhere else. But if you go through the mountains, as the Ramen do with the Ranyhyn, you come to other lands. Well, I designed the Land that way for a variety of reasons, one of which was to make it a metaphorical arena. A place where the same issues that confront people everywhere are *concentrated*: a place where--in a manner of speaking--Earthpower flows much closer to the surface of reality. (Hence the name "*the* Land," as if it were the only place that matters.) That's why it's possible to get out from under the Sunbane.

(11/11/2006)

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:As I see it, Earthpower is everywhere. It's not simply like life: it *is* life. But geographically this form of energy--I can't think of a better way to put this--flows closer to the surface in the Land than anywhere else. Which is why both the dangers and the beauties of the whole world tend to concentrate there.

But still: Earthpower (which enables health-sense) is everywhere. There is Earthpower in the very nature of the Haruchai, as there is in the essence of the Giants. (And in the Sandgorgons, who wouldn't care about health-sense if they had it, and in the Elohim, whose perceptions have gone way beyond ordinary health-sense, and....) Just because the Land--in a manner of speaking--lies closer to the water-table than other parts of the Earth doesn't mean that water, and the benefits of water, are unavailable elsewhere.

Does that help?

(12/05/2007)

Do you think, maybe, that Earthpower flows more closely to the surface in the Land or something?

Seriously Wayfriend, well researched my friend!

Does this confirm that it is Earthpower that is the sccource of power the world (earth) over I suppose it does - the clues in the name . Thats an intruiging reference to Fouls origins outside the Land - I v'e never picked up on that one. Any ideas anyone?

Excellent, wayfriend! Thanks!

peter wrote:Thats an intruiging reference to Fouls origins outside the Land - I v'e never picked up on that one

Neither have I, peter. I've just finished a reread of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles and I didn't get any hint about this, but then again I wasn't looking for it. Next time

I've speculated before (link)

Spoiler

Two Cosmologies for AATE readers

after reading wayfriend's thread (link)

Spoiler

Reading Runes: A Tale of Two Cosmologies

about the origins of Lord Foul. It never occurred to me to think in terms of another location on the world of the Land, but the sources/places that would be logical (from my speculations) would be The Isle of the One Tree, or any other location where the Worm could be accessed. (Of course to beings like the Elohim and Foul base matter is probably not an issue )

u.

ussusimiel wrote:Excellent, wayfriend! Thanks!

peter wrote:Thats an intruiging reference to Fouls origins outside the Land - I v'e never picked up on that one

Neither have I, peter. I've just finished a reread of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles and I didn't get any hint about this, but then again I wasn't looking for it. Next time

I've speculated before (link)

Spoiler

Two Cosmologies for AATE readers

after reading wayfriend's thread (link)

Spoiler

Reading Runes: A Tale of Two Cosmologies

about the origins of Lord Foul. It never occurred to me to think in terms of another location on the world of the Land, but the sources/places that would be logical (from my speculations) would be The Isle of the One Tree, or any other location where the Worm could be accessed. (Of course to beings like the Elohim and Foul base matter is probably not an issue )

u.

I don't think you'll find those hints in the 1st...there might be a couple in the 2nd, maybe, but I don't recall them off the top of my head.
There's are hints and answers for most of the rest and your Isle speculation...but its a 3rd spoilers.

peter the barsteward wrote: From where does the power of Elemesnedene come, or that of the Giants, the Brathair or the One Tree itself. Are there scources of Power in the World other than earthpower, or does earthpower rise to the surface in other parts of the World than under Melenkurion Skyweir?

The 2nd and 3rd Chronicles are essentially Linden's story, not Covenant's. Like how Hile Troy 'saw' things differantly.

What if Elemesnedene is essentially Andelain; albeit, in a differant dimension to the 1st Chronicles?
Imagine the Land being flooded beneath an ocean in which only the Giants can understand its laws and how to traverse.
Then these questions become elementary!

Brathair could quite easily become Doriendor Corishev, displaced - in time and space

A clue to this is in the cover art to The Illearth War. The one with the circluar picture overlaid on the panaramic view of the Land.
Somewhat like Tolkien's mode of storytelling of Middle Earth, Garroting Deep for example might be able to move around. As long as the forestall chooses to do so.

Imagine Doriendor Corishev as it was, surrounded with a lush forest, under the reign of a glad King and Queen. Berek's early years must have been Heaven on Earth.

Perhaps there's another thing to consider. Is it not possible that EVERY power they speak of is in fact one and the same? The power in contradiction and paradox is great, but only for covenant, who isn't of the Land. So excluding him, most often there seems to be a balance, of sorts, in power between Good and Evil, and a few... fence-sitters, I'll call them, between the two. Just like there are different languages, different places and peoples will have different names for what is, in essence, the same thing. So Elohim have their Wurd, and are fused effortlessly with it at all times, making them "Earthpower personified". Yet the lords have to struggle to reach it, and as such, realize that it isn't truly their power, but borrowed from some greater source. Since all the uses they know have to do with the Earth and The Land, they name it Earthpower. Other beings, knowing other uses for the power due to their ancestry, or their existence, as in with the Viles, Demondim, and their Spawn. Since they know different facets of the same gem, so to speak, they all name it differently, and use it differently. Since Lord Foul isn't of the land, his minions most likely borrow his might, or the might of wherever he gets his power, to do their Evil deeds. So Good, using the native source or sources of power, is limited and unequal in the fight, since they can not only fight with limited power, they can't use what power they have fully. Lord Foul, however, comes from beyond the stars*, and his power is limitless in comparison, only slowed in the gathering by the restraints of the Arch of Time. So in essence, all power used by those of the Earth seems to be singular in nature, and then as seperate, intrusive cousins, there's White Gold, and Lord Foul's... whatever it is. I'm sure you third chrons readers know the references I'm not making, I'm afraid the site doesn't really translate well to my phone, and my computer is on the fritz.

*Please, excuse the corny reference. It's cliched, but I couldn't resist.

Sherman Landlearner wrote:Lord Foul, however, comes from beyond the stars*, and his power is limitless in comparison, only slowed in the gathering by the restraints of the Arch of Time. So in essence, all power used by those of the Earth seems to be singular in nature, and then as seperate, intrusive cousins, there's White Gold, and Lord Foul's... whatever it is.

You say his power is limitless. I wonder.
Now I come to think of it, does Lord Foul have any real power at all.
For example, wasn't it the Illearth Stone that had the power to inflict despite on the Defenders of the Land, not Lord Foul; he just knew how to use the Stone against them.

I think that the Illearth Stone at it's most powerful was 'dellusion' - fantasy

When Covenant was in Foul's Creche, and held under the domination of the Emerald spite and it's delusion, what was it that he had finally realised which gave him reasons to try and destroy the Stone?

Perhaps there are as many answers to this as there are readers.

Krazy Kat wrote:

Sherman Landlearner wrote:Lord Foul, however, comes from beyond the stars*, and his power is limitless in comparison, only slowed in the gathering by the restraints of the Arch of Time. So in essence, all power used by those of the Earth seems to be singular in nature, and then as seperate, intrusive cousins, there's White Gold, and Lord Foul's... whatever it is.

You say his power is limitless. I wonder.
Now I come to think of it, does Lord Foul have any real power at all.
For example, wasn't it the Illearth Stone that had the power to inflict despite on the Defenders of the Land, not Lord Foul; he just knew how to use the Stone against them.

Well, LF has the "power" [attribute is probably better] of being immortal...true immortality, not the more limited elohim version...AFAWK.
We've seen little sign of any kind of power expressible as "force" or fast-acting effects...but he does have power. Subtle, insistent, all-pervasive [in the sense that no one/thing is "immune."] Everyone/thing it touches [which very long-term IS everyone and thing] must actively resist it.

Corrupting influence, decay, entropy, whatever you want to label it. The Haruchai simply call him "Corruption," quite often. That is likely the most precise, correct label there is...and he seems to express it through a dark charisma/influence. Corrupting truth in what he says, and warping what the target sees/hears.

Certainly the Illearth Stone made Lord Foul more powerful. It then follows that he isn't all-powerful without it.

But remember: Foul brought Lord Kevin to the point of the Ritual of Desecration without an Illearth Stone.

wayfriend wrote:Certainly the Illearth Stone made Lord Foul more powerful. It then follows that he isn't all-powerful without it.

I don't think so, really. More efficient, certainly, in/on a material basis...but the Illearth Stone does almost nothing important for him [beyond the simple joy certain nasty folk take in squashing bugs] within the world. Its only real use is another taunt/bait to get what he really wants, which is extra-earthly.

There is no real reason he couldn't rule the earth entire enjoying every twist, warp, and perversion of it...except he has goals and needs the world cannot satisfy, and that such torture made the creator weep and risk a rescue that might mean escape.

What about HEMATITE?

I read in a geology book that hematite is sometimes refered to as 'the Blood of the Earth'. It being an iron ore it's red rusting can discolor water.
I suppose the Land, somewhat like the planet Earth, could have an iron core - The Heart of the Land!

Haematite can also be found as a silver-grey.
I'm thinking of Thomas Covenant's white gold ring, or to put another way, his writing hand!

The very fact he used the Illearth stone proves his power. Anything or anyone else that went anywhere near it was harmed in some way. Including the Land, as it's said that the upper and lower land split in upheaval from the burying of the banes beneath Melenkurion Skyweir. The Illearth stone was originally buried there, wasn't it? The fact Foul survived such proximity, and used it effectively, means he must have some kind of mojo.