Kevin's Watch

Marrowmeld, the art of bone-sculpting dead (Ranyhyn?) bones, was a lost art at the start of the first chronicles. It could have simply been one of the many forgotten wonders of the Land (this one belonging to the Ramen people) that Kevin destroyed in his Ritual of Desecration, but in the Illearth War, Elena, is revealed as a Marrowmelder.

She acquires this ability, she tells Covenant, during her participation in a Ranyhyn Horserite as a girl. But, although the central theme of that period in the Land's history was the reacquisition of lost lore, no one but her knows how to marrowmeld. This strongly suggests that people can't teach each other this art, only Ranyhyn can through participation in their horserites.

so the past marrowmelders from before the Desecration were taken to horserites. Why did the ranyhyn take them to them? (slight ROTE spoiler follows:) Elena and Linden were taken to warn them of dangerous decisions they might make in their future. Were the past marrowmelders similarly taken so the ranyhyn could warn them against dooms they might enact?

Who were these marrowmelders and what dooms did they almost enact?

This strongly suggests that people can't teach each other this art, only Ranyhyn can through participation in their horserites.

Isn't it sufficient explanation that there are no human skilled in this who might teach Elena? And that marrowmeld was truly lost during the desecration?

Interesting speculation, sbshoe. I haven't ever really considered it in depth, but the melding itself reminds me of what Trell did with the bowl at the start of LFB, so I would think that firstly the person would have to have an aptness for Earthpower, as Elena, granddaughter of Trell and Atiaran obviously had. Secondly, it looks like they would also need a deep connection with the Ranyhyn, which is why the lore was present among the Ramen (who generally don't seem to use lore (a bit like the Haruchai)).

Taking these two factors into account might explain why Elena didn't teach others the lore (the Ramen not being greatly fond of travelling outside of the Plains and Elena busy being a Lord). It doesn't explain why the Ranyhyn didn't reintroduce the lore to the Ramen. As usual it may just be SRD using just as much of the story as is necessary, but it does leave an interesting space for speculation.

As Vraith points out, there does seem to be an seer/prophet aspect to a some of the art of the Land and with the Ranyhyn involved it is likely that this would be even stronger.

I'll need to think a bit more about it.

u.

[EDITS: to remove embarrassing error. Will I lose my Gold Star status on the Watch ]

ussusimiel wrote:Interesting speculation, sbshoe. I haven't ever really considered it in depth, but the melding itself reminds me of what Triock did with the bowl at the start of LFB, so I would think that firstly the person would have to have an aptness for Earthpower, as Elena, granddaughter of Triock and Atiaran obviously had. Secondly, it looks like they would also need a deep connection with the Ranyhyn, which is why the lore was present among the Ramen (who generally don't seem to use lore (a bit like the Haruchai)).

Taking these two factors into account might explain why Elena didn't teach others the lore (the Ramen not being greatly fond of travelling outside of the Plains and Elena busy being a Lord). It doesn't explain why the Ranyhyn didn't reintroduce the lore to the Ramen. As usual it may just be SRD using just as much of the story as is necessary, but it does leave an interesting space for speculation.

As Vraith points out, there does seem to be an seer/prophet aspect to a some of the art of the Land and with the Ranyhyn involved it is likely that this would be even stronger.

I'll need to think a bit more about it.

u.

Triock didn't mend anything in LFB, and he was not Elena's grandfather. That would be Trell. BIG difference.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Marrowmeld, the art of bone-sculpting dead (Ranyhyn?) bones, was a lost art at the start of the first chronicles. It could have simply been one of the many forgotten wonders of the Land (this one belonging to the Ramen people) that Kevin destroyed in his Ritual of Desecration, but in the Illearth War, Elena, is revealed as a Marrowmelder.

She acquires this ability, she tells Covenant, during her participation in a Ranyhyn Horserite as a girl. But, although the central theme of that period in the Land's history was the reacquisition of lost lore, no one but her knows how to marrowmeld. This strongly suggests that people can't teach each other this art, only Ranyhyn can through participation in their horserites.

so the past marrowmelders from before the Desecration were taken to horserites. Why did the ranyhyn take them to them? (slight ROTE spoiler follows:) Elena and Linden were taken to warn them of dangerous decisions they might make in their future. Were the past marrowmelders similarly taken so the ranyhyn could warn them against dooms they might enact?

Who were these marrowmelders and what dooms did they almost enact?

Elena nentioned she picked up Marrowmeld because of her union with the Rhanyhyn during the horserite, but nowhere does anything ever mention that is the only way to learn it. Both Bannor and Foamfollower mention that the Ramen practiced Marrowmeld before the ROD. To me it seems that it was something practiced by many Ramen - and I doubt ALL of them participated in the Horserite, considering we have been told the Rhanyhyn only did it once/generation.

wayfriend wrote:

This strongly suggests that people can't teach each other this art, only Ranyhyn can through participation in their horserites.

Isn't it sufficient explanation that there are no human skilled in this who might teach Elena? And that marrowmeld was truly lost during the desecration?

There were various lost human arts at the beginning of the chronicles, but unlike all the other rediscovered lost arts, marrowmeld remained solely in the possession of Elena. This doesn't fit the society of the first chronicles. When people learned she has this ability, certainly after she reached Revelstone/Revelwood, others would have congregated around her to try and learn this art.

But no one could learn it. So they had to be missing an essential component. And that was the non verbal horseyness the horserite imbued her with.

bikebryan wrote:Triock didn't mend anything in LFB, and he was not Elena's grandfather. That would be Trell. BIG difference.

Thanks bikebryan, one of my great fears of making an embarrassing TCTC related error has finally happened. I think I've survived

u.

ussusimiel wrote:

bikebryan wrote:Triock didn't mend anything in LFB, and he was not Elena's grandfather. That would be Trell. BIG difference.

Thanks bikebryan, one of my great fears of making an embarrassing TCTC related error has finally happened. I think I've survived

u.

For now

And shoe, I think you are assuming that everyone would want to learn all lost forms of knowledge/art. I do not think that is the case. The people of the Land are concerned, at this point, mostly with vivifying the Land, bringing and nurturing Life. In order to work a Marrowmeld, you first must have death. With a culture so focused on life and where sorrow is brought about by the mere breaking of a stone dish, I do not think most people would want to learn how to marrowmeld. This also kinda shows another aspect of how Elena is not quite in sync with the culture around her.

Orlion wrote:And shoe, I think you are assuming that everyone would want to learn all lost forms of knowledge/art. I do not think that is the case. The people of the Land are concerned, at this point, mostly with vivifying the Land, bringing and nurturing Life. In order to work a Marrowmeld, you first must have death. With a culture so focused on life and where sorrow is brought about by the mere breaking of a stone dish, I do not think most people would want to learn how to marrowmeld. This also kinda shows another aspect of how Elena is not quite in sync with the culture around her.

The people of the Land weren't exclusively vegetarians. Maybe Elena got bones from the butcher.
But yeah, Bonesculpting is still kinda creepy.

Maybe, crazy thought here, she just didn't have time. She learned it as a child. So, in between chores and daily life, she develops the skill. Then she goes to study, with no time to teach. Then a lord, and high lord, all of which are busy positions. Any spare time she got, I doubt she'd want to spend teaching a dead skill. Assuming, of course, that anyone even dared to ask her.

Orlion wrote:And shoe, I think you are assuming that everyone would want to learn all lost forms of knowledge/art. I do not think that is the case.

Well, the stonedowners seek stone lore and the woodhelvenen seek wood lore, leaving no one to be really interested in bone lore. Which probably also explains why the marrowmeld lore was lost during the great desecration.

wayfriend wrote:

Orlion wrote:And shoe, I think you are assuming that everyone would want to learn all lost forms of knowledge/art. I do not think that is the case.

Well, the stonedowners seek stone lore and the woodhelvenen seek wood lore, leaving no one to be really interested in bone lore. Which probably also explains why the marrowmeld lore was lost during the great desecration.

It was hinted in the original chronicles (LFB?) that the people of the land weren't always segregated into woodlore or stonelore. After the ROD, they stuck with what they needed to live. Those in the "rocky" areas had no use for wood lore, so they stopped worrying about it and only practiced stone lore, etc.

bikebryan wrote:

wayfriend wrote:

Orlion wrote:And shoe, I think you are assuming that everyone would want to learn all lost forms of knowledge/art. I do not think that is the case.

Well, the stonedowners seek stone lore and the woodhelvenen seek wood lore, leaving no one to be really interested in bone lore. Which probably also explains why the marrowmeld lore was lost during the great desecration.

It was hinted in the original chronicles (LFB?) that the people of the land weren't always segregated into woodlore or stonelore. After the ROD, they stuck with what they needed to live. Those in the "rocky" areas had no use for wood lore, so they stopped worrying about it and only practiced stone lore, etc.

That's mostly what it hinted.
But I still think it is a mistake [considering how people talk about it] to think of marromeld as "lore." The Land blurs some lines more than the real world does, so it's slippery/mushy...but it seems more talent/art than lore/knowledge. I mean: as far as we know having tons of lore won't make you capable of doing it, and being capable of doing it doesn't mean you know any lore.

Perhaps that explains it more than anything. They didn't actually "use" marrowmelding. It just made pretty statues and art. Which they can't really carry around easily. Since they were constantly taveling, and it served no practical function, the no-nonsense Ramen didn't bother with it.

I've been thinking about this a bit and finally it started to give a bit. I looked more closely at the word itself, 'marrowmeld', and began to focus on the 'meld' bit. Then I remembered that Elena had 'melded' Covenant and Bannor together in her sculpture, and I began to get somewhere. After the Desecration, when things were separating (e.g. wood lore and stone lore) a lore like marrowmeld, which is all about fusing and bringing together could easily be lost (as well as having no functional use).

The melding aspect of the lore may also be relevant to the prophetic element that seems to be attached to it (at least in Elena's case). Melding also suggests, fusion and alloy, and thus White Gold and TC. Elena is TC's daughter so she might have an affinity for the lore. Additionally, bone is white, and bone is structure, so there are hints that Law maybe involved.

Oh that SRD! He's a deep one

u.

ussusimiel wrote:

bikebryan wrote:Triock didn't mend anything in LFB, and he was not Elena's grandfather. That would be Trell. BIG difference.

Thanks bikebryan, one of my great fears of making an embarrassing TCTC related error has finally happened. I think I've survived

u.

Been there, done that.

Good point Orlion on the Marrowmeld as an aspect of Elena's 'out of sync'ness with what is going on in the Land around her. I never saw the Marrowmeld as being 'creepy' in any way - I think this is because of the love and tenderness that I always (maybe wrongly)assumed was behind the works. Intention in any art production will inevitably color how it is percieved.
Just a quick side track - was there not a similar art carried out with stone. I have a recollection of TC being taken to the summit of a hill and seeing the face of an old woman (or a giant or something) in the arrangement of rocks below him. A bit different, but didn't people practice an art form where they balanced stones together and locked them into structures. Am I inventing this in my age addled mind - if so I claim the patent.

There was, but there's a difference here. Ramen travel. Stonedowners don't. So they can accumulate pretty little knickknacks, and the Ramen can't.

LFB Chapter 4:

Lena: "I was stone-questing," she answered. "I am learing suru-pa-maerl. Do you know this craft?"

Covenant: "No," he said between breaths. "Tell me"

"It is a craft I am learning from Acence my mother's sister, and she learned it from Toma, the best Craftmaster in the memory of our Stonedown. He also studied for a time in the Loresraat. But suru-pa-maerl is a craft of making images from stones without binding or shaping......"

Yes - thats the one Iolanthe - was that the same thing as the 'big face' episode I seem to recall.