Stoicism of haruchai?

[Vader]

AATE, part two, chapter 2 (p. 305, paperback)

"Well then," began the Ironhand abruptly. "A giantclave tailored to the brevity of humans, and to stoicism of Haruchai.

Silly question and maybe nitpicking - but how on earth (or in the land) can the giants possibly have knowledge of ancient greek stoic philosophy?

[DWOLF]

The internal answer is that the Land and everything in it is part of Thomas Covenant's sub-concious mind and there fore the beings in it have an access to what he knows.
The external answer its a series of fictional books written in the english language and if you take all the greek and latin based words out there is going to be fuck all left.

[Vader]

Though I can appreciate the internal answer, I don't think the external answer is satisfying at all.

Usually SRD is VERY careful with his words, so this is either a slip or a hint that the internal answer is true.

And wouldn't the usage of a strict real-world-term be more proof for the irreality of the Land than growing a beard a or such?

[wayfriend]

I have to agree with DWOLF. "stoic" and "stoicism" are English words. They are no more odd of a choice than "kraken", "league", or (for that matter) "gold". American English has incorporated many words from other cultures; it would be very hard to speak without using any of them.

[Vader]

They are also German words by that reasoning ("stoische Ruhe" = stoicism is a pretty common idiom over here.)

However, most educated people would instantly recognize its connotation.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Ah, linguistics and etymology... I've silently accepted the Land's integral nature being linked to Covenant's mind, and ceased pummeling my head with a cudgel over the weirdness and conflict of some of his expressions.

Take Coercri for instance. Coer comes from Latin through Old French, so the name reads 'cry of the heart', 'heart's scream', etc. Then we have Swordmain that means either 'sword-force' or 'sword-leader'. The plural is -mainnir. Being not very familiar with Latin, I looked at some basic declension tables a while back, and decided that this oddment looks very Icelandic. Caamora: I haven't been able to dissect this word properly... It might contain an element of the Latin mors, (death/annihilation) maybe something in the lines of '--to reduce into nothing'. Caa doesn't resemble anything I know, except for the sound the raven makes. Then again, 'Home of the Giants' is a blatant reuse of Jötunheim...

One of my favorites from Rime must be 'caitiff cateran':

cateran [ˈkætərən]
n
(Historical Terms) (formerly) a member of a band of brigands and marauders in the Scottish highlands
[probably from Scottish Gaelic ceathairneach robber, plunderer]

Makes as much sense as a Greek school of philosophy.

If I created a fantasy world, probably one of the first things I'd do would be to form a consistent language system, considering how utterly nitpicky I can get with these. It makes sense if it all comes from Covenant's dreams; after all, he used to be a hack author with a weak, self-congratulating debut piece.


Real languages are massive mess-ups of borrowed words and pieces of grammar. 'Whale' worms its way into the English language from proto-ugric *kala; Finnish has a crapload of Indo-European and Slavic loans; some deem it's the other way round with a bucketful of expressions. Latin borrowed a great deal from the Etruscans, some say Etruscan was actually related to Hungarian. My regional dialect has notable bits of Estonian and Swedish thrown in due to hundreds or thousands of years of commerce and conflict and migration around these areas. The base word for Russia/ns, Rus, emerges from the Finnish ruotsit, which in this context originally denoted the Swedish Viking merchants of Novgorod. (Ruotsi = Sweden in Finnish.) Words become muddled and mixed up.
A bottomless swamp, this...

Aside from that, the Giants have the gift of tongues and are explorers/merchants. Regarding the latter, it would actually make sense that their lingo was littered with loans... Starting with the ancient Greek Titans they met during one of their voyages, and in due course discovered a genetic compatibility...

[Vader]

I see what you mean and I have done linguistics as well as part of my English and philosophy studies.

Of course languages are "mess ups of borrowed words and pieces of grammar". However the grade of connotation isn't the same with all words. Maybe it's something personal (and speaking about connotation it certainly is) but I can read the German word "Fenster" (window) without thinking about Latin fenestra, but I positively can't read "Stoa" without instantly thinkling "Greek philosophy".

So finding the word "stoic" in such a context naturally strikes me more as curious than say reading "coerci".

For all that's worth the Land might have developped the same words in languages but hardly also the same philosophies (if you can understand what I mean, as clumsy as I word it).

It's necessary that folks in the Land speak our language (otherwise neither we nor Covenant/Linden etc. could understand them) but I wouldn't expect Land inhabitants to make blatant real world references, like talking about "platonic love", "going postal" or making Chuck Norris jokes.

Starting with the ancient Greek Titans they met during one of their voyages, and in due course discovered a genetic compatibility...

Now that would be fun - The Land meets Stargate. :p Kiitos for that.

[wayfriend]

Can you allow that at some point a word, through common use, might be imbued with a meaning that is no longer related to it's entymology? That "stoic" might have come to mean uncomplaining endurance without any connotation of a greek philosophy? Can an "assassin" ever mean a ruthless killer without connoting a middle eastern sect? Can a "barber" ever mean one who generally cuts hair and not necessarilly beards? etc. etc. I think that they can. I think that someone can refer to a person as stoic without ever being aware of a greek philosophy, because word meanings evolve, and language is temporal.

[Vader]

I already admitted I was being a nit picking in the OP above.

I just felt I'd have avoided such a word in this context. However it neither spoils the series for me nor does my life depend on it. Thank you for your thoughts anyway.

[Vraith]

I already admitted I was being a nit picking in the OP above.

I just felt I'd have avoided such a word in this context. However it neither spoils the series for me nor does my life depend on it. Thank you for your thoughts anyway.

I've been following various paths on this [my own, and those others mentioned here]. In most situations I think these kinds of talks are silly. You have to tell the story in language folk will understand...
"stoic" as most people understand it isn't special/deep/a philosophy. It would be a cliche if it were part of a common phrase.
In recent years, it is often an insult or an apology [unless the stoic person is an american being tortured...then it's manly.]
you can play implication/connotation/obfuscation/denotation games...BUT you better play them well or you'll get blasted.

If I were SRD, I would have used it. It functions succinctly, and more importantly not ENTIRELY obscurely for those who just want to read a good story AND connectively/multiply/associatively for those who want allusion/reference/depth/resonance.

[Vader]

If joy is also in the eyes of the reader you may forgive my silliness and laugh instead joyfully.

Don't forget English is not my native tongue, so the connotation of words might be different in other languages (I'm reading the Chronicles in English, though since I generally avoid translations if possible). Also having to work with philosophy every day mayhap increases my awreness for this term.

And to make one thing clear, I'm really in love with AATE. To me it's the best book of the TLC so far and certainly amongst the best of the whole series.

[Orlion]

*shrug* I've accepted Satansheart, Plains of Ra, and Kevin. Accepting stoics in the Land is not so glaring "off" as these.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Satansheart was one of those "Mitä perkelettä?" moments for me. Really threw me off. Almost on par with an in-written Chuck Norris joke. Granted, 'satan' means 'opposer' in Hebrew, but how do semitic religions or gods pertain to the Land? Unless it's Covenant's brainpan cooking it up.

[Vraith]

Satansheart

heh...I have to admit, contrary to what I said above, that one did bug me/toss me off track a bit.

I wonder why Kevin bugs folk but Lena and Elena don't?

But, tangent of original topic, there might be some worthwhile info/insight in how the character of the Har. matches and diverges from Stoic thought.

[Vader]

Satansheart and stuff all came up in the first chronicles when SRD didn't have future chronicles in mind. He has been way more careful since then (neglecting the genuine WTF-name Kenaustin Ardenol) and I would thought he'd only use real world references with a purpose right now.

But anyway, I can live with that, as long as TLD won't have any Elohims called La Dygaga or Insequents like Just Inbieber.

[shadowbinding shoe]

How about Tsunami? That one bothered me in AATE.

[Vader]

I should make myself clearer. I wouldn't mind if SRD had used the term "stoicism" to describe the Haruchai in a narrative part. I just objected against the use in direct speech by a character of the novel.

I think there is a difference between SRD telling us "Covenant looked like Hugh Laurie" or the Ironhand actually saying "Hey Covenant, you look like Dr. House."

[shadowbinding shoe]

I should make myself clearer. I wouldn't mind if SRD had used the term "stoicism" to describe the Haruchai in a narrative part. I just objected against the use in direct speech by a character of the novel.

I think there is a difference between SRD telling us "Covenant looked like Hugh Laurie" or the Ironhand actually saying "Hey Covenant, you look like Dr. House."

If you remember that the Land is supposed to be the land of ideals it's a wonder there are not more philosophical concepts and archetypes.

[Vader]

And the Lost Deep is Plato's cave then? :p

[Frostheart Grueburn]

But anyway, I can live with that, as long as TLD won't have any Elohims called La Dygaga or Insequents like Just Inbieber.

I would probably use TLD as toilet paper, should it give an approving nod towards Bieber or 50 Shades of Crap or any such braintorment.

Is Kenaustin supposed to refer to something? Cannot make head nor tail out of that, aside from Ardenol sounding vaguely like a brand of painkillers.