Kevin's Watch

Here are a few things to ponder: at what point does TC go from Unbelief to Belief? Did he ever really give up his Unbelief, and was Unbelief really what TC used to defeat Foul--twice? Or is he still an Unbeliever? While we're at it, what does it really mean to be an Unbeliever?


Here are my own musings: I think he remained an Unbeliever throughout the FC, but near the end he supposedly reached the "eye of the paradox"--meaning he somehow both believed and yet didn't.

Spoiler

But, it seems that by the time he bargained for Joan and got stabbed at the beginning of TWL that he had given up his Unbelief, right?

What does everyone else think?



DukkhaWaynhim
[Weird and Proud of It]

I think that he just came to the conclusion that the truth didn't matter. Who among us ever knows for sure if everything around us is real, or just our own grand delusions anyway? What is the nature of reality? If you can see it, touch it, smell it, taste it -does that mean it's real? It doesn't matter much in the end. We can only react to the things we percieve, and be as true to ourselves as we can. I think TC decided that he didn't care if the Land was "real" or not - he loved it, and it's people, and nothing in any reality is truer than that. Defending the Land was simply the truest expression himself. And I think that's what the old man meant when he said "Be true."

i think the tansition was when he met the main man at the end of the first chrons.

Spoiler

and he saved his life in the real world

I think that he'd have every reason to think it was real once
he saw that image of Foul in the flames!

I also believe that he actually came to the conclusion that it didn't matter.

Yeah - like the paradox of the white gold, he loved the Land and its people but didn't believe. He acted on his love and that's all that mattered.

In reality as in dreams, what matters is the answer we find in our hearts to the test of Despite. -- SRD

I had never considered the question before! I suppose that I would agree with he just figured that it did not matter anymore.


(This is my first post with my new laptop! I'm so happy! )

caamora wrote:(This is my first post with my new laptop! I'm so happy! )

All RIGHT!!!

I think it is how it was explained in the second chrons - he had to accept that both things were true. He must believe that the Land is real, that he is realy there, that it is wirth saving, and at the same time he must accept that he is unconcious in the real world and as far as the that is concerned, this is a dream, and he must keep control of his mind. He accepted the land as both real and a dream, and it didn't matter that this was a paradox.

I think your wrong, it did matter that it was a paradox. Without the paradox he would not have been able to defeat lord foul at the end of the first chrons.

I agree with Hierachy

I think what Murrin meant about it not mattering is that it was not a riddle that had to be solved. It didn't matter that Covenant accepted opposing theories. In fact, it was required that he accept opposing theories. "It didn't matter" that he did not come to a firm stance on one side or the other.

I do think that the conclusion he came to in the end was very Hermetic in nature: that the inner world is connected to the outer world and they reflect each other - and it really doesn't matter if you come to be in harmony with your inner world or the outer; once you achieve one, you achieve both.

[I recently finished re-reading TWL, and have yet to pick up with TOT]

It seems that the whole issue of whether he Believed or not was made irrelevant in SC. I do agree with Hierachy that his paradoxical Belief/Unbelief was key to defeating Foul in FC, but I just don't know what did it in SC. Did Unbelief factor into it? Or was it his alloyed leper's attitude that carried him through?

Maybe I'll get more insight with this reread, which can't start until I've seen ROTK at least twice!

DukkhaWaynhim
[Weird and Proud of It]

Well dukka, I've just finished TOT and am 100 pages into WGW. So as I haven't read it yet I wont post any kind of spoiler. But I find it very difficult that unbelief (well TC's at least) will let covenant beat foul again, it's just not gonna happen (not least because he does believe). I think it will have something to do with

Spoiler

Linden avery getting the wild magic

ok, i decided to put a spoiler there because there are alot of indications that it will happen in TOT

Hierachy wrote:Well dukka, I've just finished TOT and am 100 pages into WGW. So as I haven't read it yet I wont post any kind of spoiler. But I find it very difficult that unbelief (well TC's at least) will let covenant beat foul again, it's just not gonna happen (not least because he does believe). I think it will have something to do with

Spoiler

Linden avery getting the wild magic

ok, i decided to put a spoiler there because there are alot of indications that it will happen in TOT

All I will say in response is this [teaser / quasi-spoiler follows]:

Spoiler

Mhoram was right.

I have read the Chronicles many times over, and do not wish to spoil anything either, but I am interested in your opinion about TC's motivations in the last pages of WGW, once you've finished.

DukkhaWayhhim
[Weird and Proud of It]

I would suggest that the moment that Thomas Covenant believes is the moment he faces the fact that raping Lena was a cruel thing to do. I mean 16 is a bit young for that. But the point is that he sort of woke up right then to accept that his actions in the land had impact.

Good point, Zeph.