Kevin's Watch

Having a similar discussion on Facebook with some fellow comedians. Where do my fellow Watchers draw the line when it comes to comedy? Should certain topics simply be out of bounds (rape inevitably seems to come up here)? Or is it a question of intent and approach? Or are there no rules save the all important "Be Funny?"

I think it depends on intent. If you are merely entertaining, then you must know your audience. You are should not, for example, joke about rape at My Big Sister's Place, make fun of Jesus at a Baptist Convention, or use the Koran as toilet paper in Saudi Arabia. You are trying to entertain the audience, not offend them. In that case, if your audience is a group of atheists, you should not worry about what christians say, or if they are offended. They are not the intended audience.

If you make jokes to offend, you are a bad and ineffective satirist.

Now, the complicated issue has to do with what humour says about you... and that can be tricky. The idea being, would you like to be around people that continually make 'x' joke? If all someone makes is poop jokes, we tend to think them juvenille... if they make rape/killing babies jokes, I think we can view them, fairly, as being a bit unhinged.

The comedians we remember push the boundaries and run roughshod over taboos. Pryor, Kinison, Carlin, CK.....they all crap on taboos.

Nothing should be taboo. And it's never too soon.

There is something funny about everything. A good comedian can find it.

It's just your audiences you have to worry about. Not everybody is as smart, witty and enlightened as us.

--A

Avatar wrote:Nothing should be taboo. And it's never too soon.

There is something funny about everything. A good comedian can find it.

It's just your audiences you have to worry about. Not everybody is as smart, witty and enlightened as us.

--A

I don't know. I can name a few subjects that are out of bounds for me. Maybe I am antiquated but I don't appreciate humor based on someone's tragedy. Of course, everyone's definition of tragedy is different.

Man and wife in the sitting room watching telly.

She says: Will you look at her. Wish my tits were bigger.

He says: Rub toilet paper on them.

She says: Really! Does that work?

He says: Well it works on yer arse!

These are all funny. Most of them are incredibly offensive, especially #1 and #2. But they're still funny.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Taboos are meant to be broken. Only lily-livered ninnies cover their ears rather than hear something provocative.

So someone that chooses not to listen to comedy that they consider offensive is a lily-livered ninny?

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Yes. If someone cannot handle being offended or listening/reading something they might normally consider to be "offensive", then I consider that person to be weak-willed. *shrug* I never said that all my opinions would be likable.

Someone can be offended only if they choose to be offended.

I don't think so. Avoiding something you find offensive is no different than avoiding things that make you sad if other options are available.

That doesn't mean you can't "handle" them if you have to, or demonstrate a weak will...it just means you'd rather not be sad.

Now some people literally can't handle being offended...just like some people can't handle being sad...I'd tend to say in those literal cases it's a matter of mental health, biological/neurological, not will-power. And probably not very common.

For myself, I don't tend to find these kinds of things "not funny" because they are offensive [for taboo or whatever reason]...I tend to find them offensive because they aren't funny.

It is probably a matter of taste at root...
And the "not what, but how you say it" effect is in play, obviously.

But taboo-based comedy does tend to be remembered, lives long...until the taboo is gone and forgotten...because it serves a critical function in human social groups, it's part of survival, it's adaptive. [slapstick goes on, too...but on a different track/purpose].

What a significant and relevant subject!
I've been having some serious conversations about what humor is good myself, lately... trying to refine my own boundaries on what I should and should not be using.

Cambo wrote:Or is it a question of intent and approach?

I'd say it's MUCH more about intent than about content...
But the intent inevitably affects the content.

And yet we humans can never precisely know others' intents...
...so we often rely on the appearance of things.

It's also about context. Very much about context.
Kind of like the old saying "not for mixed company."
But also important is... is the audience of a joke (here I'm thinking of say, one I might casually make among friends... performers like you have a whole 'nother set of dilemmas) small enough, and comfortable enough calling each-other on stuff that.. if there's a problem... someone will pull me aside to talk about what I said later.

Orlion wrote:In that case, if your audience is a group of atheists, you should not worry about what christians say, or if they are offended.

Disagree.
Since it's me, I'll turn it around and say that if my intended audience is a group of people who associate themselves with Christian views, I think I should be still somewhat concerned about what someone coming from any other belief system would think heard it.
Because they will, in some cases. *shrug*

But I should be much more concerned about what the people who I know are in my audience will think of the partie(s) who are "the butt of the joke"... mockery is out of place.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Yes. If someone cannot handle being offended or listening/reading something they might normally consider to be "offensive", then I consider that person to be weak-willed. *shrug* I never said that all my opinions would be likable.

Someone can be offended only if they choose to be offended.

I think "whether someone gets offended" is the wrong axis to be looking down here...
It's an immature thing to think of as the most significant category why someone wouldn't listen to a joke.

Why someone's getting offended goes a little deeper then whether someone is offended.
Where it can go... as vraith mentioned in talking about people sensibly exercising awareness of their own limitations... (is that an appropriate characterization, vraith?) is another important thing.

But, Hashi, what if I very rationally anticipate that certain types of content - in humor, in music, or in literature - will call out to the wrongs deep inside me?
What if a 'joke' calls for an opposing response to be spoken to the people present when said joke is told, but social context precludes conversation?
(because if there's nothing spoken against it, well, that just implies that everyone agrees with the sentiment..)

Hope you can bear my ranting, Hashi!
I take humor very seriously.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Yes. If someone cannot handle being offended or listening/reading something they might normally consider to be "offensive", then I consider that person to be weak-willed. *shrug* I never said that all my opinions would be likable.

Someone can be offended only if they choose to be offended.

Just because I choose not to listen / read something I perceive as offensive does not mean I cannot handle it. I can 'handle' most anything, luckily I have the choice not to listen to or waste my time reading things that I perceive as offensive. I doubt that makes me weak willed.

Any who consider lorin weak-willed do not know her. Capable of weakness, perhaps; who is not? Fundamentally weak or irresolute? Absolutely the opposite.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:But, Hashi, what if I very rationally anticipate that certain types of content - in humor, in music, or in literature - will call out to the wrongs deep inside me?
What if a 'joke' calls for an opposing response to be spoken to the people present when said joke is told, but social context precludes conversation?
(because if there's nothing spoken against it, well, that just implies that everyone agrees with the sentiment..)

Hope you can bear my ranting, Hashi!
I take humor very seriously.

Ironically, humor is a very serious business because it often gets to the truth of a situation while simultaneously making you laugh at it or about it.

If something calls out to the wrongs inside you then that is a problem you have to solve for youself; no one else could assist you, to the best of my knowledge.

Savor Dam wrote:Any who consider lorin weak-willed do not know her.

That's just it, isn't it? I do not know lorin. At all. My comments were not directed at her in particular and I wasn't even thinking about her when I spoke my mind.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote: That's just it, isn't it? I do not know lorin. At all. My comments were not directed at her in particular and I wasn't even thinking about her when I spoke my mind.

And I certainly didn't take it personally. It's all good.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Ironically, humor is a very serious business because it often gets to the truth of a situation while simultaneously making you laugh at it or about it.

Agreed. At its best, yes... it can be so creative and powerful.

Hashi wrote:If something calls out to the wrongs inside you then that is a problem you have to solve for youself;

On the subject of personal responsibility, I can agree with you that I'm responsible for solving my own problems...
But what if my pride, unrighteous wrath, greed, lust, gluttony, sloth, foolishness, envy, and selfish ambition will be with me -- in some measure, and in some manifestation -- till the day I die?

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:no one else could assist you, to the best of my knowledge.

Wow. I've been so much helped by so many people with so many things that I just flat-out believe you are wrong.
That said, any mere mortal is a frail help with real problems some days.

Anyways, now that you've offended everyone, Hashi, I'm curious what's your thing with people who are easily offended and who might cover their eyes or ears regarding a joke..
My most charitable guess is that you don't like the "I'm better than you" attitude in people, and maybe you think such behavior usually implies such a judgement?

Humor and offense are two sides of the same coin, I think. I'll wager they operate out of the same area of the brain.
What is humor? For that matter, what is offense?
Is it funnier because it is offensive? Some comics and audiences think so.
Sometimes a joke is offensive to a person precisely because others see humor in it.
And another turn of the crank -- I believe that both of these are contextual / situational, but also relatively organic.
Have you ever been told a joke when you are already laughing, and it causes you to laugh even harder...then later, you recall that second joke, and wonder why you found it so funny the first time? The second joke was funnier the first time you heard it, because you were already laughing. Those are different kinds of funny than the 'funny every time' stuff.

Yuk yuk.

lorin wrote:And I certainly didn't take it personally. It's all good.

Excellent.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:But what if my pride, unrighteous wrath, greed, lust, gluttony, sloth, foolishness, envy, and selfish ambition will be with me -- in some measure, and in some manifestation -- till the day I die?

Then we will simply be in the same boat.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Wow. I've been so much helped by so many people with so many things that I just flat-out believe you are wrong.
That said, any mere mortal is a frail help with real problems some days.

Not a problem. I may be right much of the time but not all the time.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Anyways, now that you've offended everyone, Hashi, I'm curious what's your thing with people who are easily offended and who might cover their eyes or ears regarding a joke..
My most charitable guess is that you don't like the "I'm better than you" attitude in people, and maybe you think such behavior usually implies such a judgement?

"Offending people" is in my job description.

Honestly, I am not really certain right now why I dislike it when people get easily offended at something; I have never put much thought into before. I suspect it is because I think they should be able to detach themselves from a situation and process the information like I would, as if the information had no direct effect on me whatsoever (which it doesn't). I do sometimes tend to judge people by my standards, which can be fairly high at times...but at least I also tend to keep my mouth shut, which prevents a lot of trouble.

lorin wrote:Maybe I am antiquated but I don't appreciate humor based on someone's tragedy. Of course, everyone's definition of tragedy is different.

I think that even tragedy can be funny if you look at it from a certain perspective.

--A