Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:22 am**

The word often is a good example of the way our language goes round and round.

Old English had the word oft, meaning “frequently.” It also had the word seldan, which meant “rarely,” and is the source of our word seldom.

It is thought that oft morphed into often by analogy with seldan. Then seldan changed to seldum by analogy with another time word, hwilum, which meant “sometimes” or “once”. Over time, seldum came to be spelled seldom.

The t in often continued to be pronounced until some time in the 15th century when a consonant simplification occurred in some words that had two or more consonants in a row. It was at this time that speakers stopped pronouncing the d in handkerchief and handsome, the p in raspberry, and the t in chestnut and often.

John Walker’s Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, published in 1791 and still available in a 2001 reprint of the 1838 edition, stipulates that “in often and soften the t is silent.”

By 1926, enough speakers were pronouncing the t in often to provoke this testy comment from H. W. Fowler in Modern English Usage:

[the pronunciation of the t in often] is practised by two oddly consorted classes—the academic speakers who affect a more precise enunciation than their neighbours…& the uneasy half-literates who like to prove that they can spell….”

In 1996, an editor of the OED2, R. W. Burchfield, avoided censuring the “t” pronunciation in this conciliatory comment:

Nowadays…many standard speakers use both [AWF-in] and [AWF-tin], but the former pronunciation is the more common of the two.

However, writer on language Charles Harrington Elster, in The Big Book Of Beastly Mispronunciations: The Complete Opinionated Guide For The Careful Speaker(1999), rejects such compromise:

I would caution those who might be consoled by the comments of … Burchfield to heed the admonitions of the past and avoid pronouncing the t.

Elster supports his position with an appeal to analogy:

analogy is entirely unsupportive: no one pronounces the t in soften, listen, fasten, moisten, hasten, chasten, christen, and Christmas—so, once and for all, let’s do away with the eccentric AWF-tin.
www.dailywritingtips.com/how-do-you-pronounce-often/

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:31 pm**

I once knew somebody who pronounced the "t" in Christmas. I think she probably pronounced it in often, too.

I however, do not.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:55 pm**

Often has a T, and has always been intended to be pronounced with a T as far as I knew. Though in casual speech Ts often get dropped, it's still there in spirit.

Also, the pronunciation in that post are hilariously American: "[AWF-in] and [AWF-tin]". Haha. It's the classic American drawl. (It's O as in Off.)

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:48 am**

I'm Murrin wrote: Also, the pronunciation in that post are hilariously American: "[AWF-in] and [AWF-tin]". Haha. It's the classic American drawl. (It's O as in Off.)

that's funny...when you say it is "O"...that would mean "O" as in "Oaf" or "Open"... [the last syllable is schwa, not "i" as in "in."...that would be more wrong and annoying than a T in the middle]
really it's non-transferable phonetics. [it really is "Aw" as in Awful...ALSO as in "off, as you said...but not phono-accurate]...which is correct regionally, but still nothing like IPA transcript.

The "T" is DEFINITELY not standard anymore [and in SONG it is fucking annoying!
I think that is a great rule! If you can't sing it and not sound stupid, then don't SAY it]...just like no one says "HWHi-ch" "Hwhat"...and really it was never a matter of correct, only a matter of Snoot.]...and I h-wonder H-why diDn'T they say H-w-Hooo? Or Did H-they? if H-they did, H-th-en H-wHere?

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:59 am**

I don't know what's wrong with you, but it's definately a short o and not an "or" or an "aw".

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:00 am**

I'm Murrin wrote:I don't know what's wrong with you, but it's definately a short o and not an "or" or an "aw".

AW...that [as in at] is so [as in oh no] sweet. [as in beet].
But [as in hut] there [as in air] is no "short o" in "or" or "oar" or "ore,"
So [as in oh] I got [as in hot] you there. Short o, as in "got" and "hot" which also happens a "lot" but "not" "AW-f[schwa]n.

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:52 am**

[or [of-uhn] and [of-tuhn] ]

And how do you pronounce "oft" if not with an "off"?

When you say AW-fuhn, what you're saying is almost "orphan". Which sounds nothing like "often".

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:00 am**

"often". But I have a posh friend who says "awften". I had to say it to find out how I pronounced it. If I reverted to my childhood (east of London) vernacular I probably would say "offen".

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:50 am**

we can't even agree that there is a "t" in often (which i do pronounce) - what hope is there for this world?

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:21 pm**

I'm Murrin wrote:[or [of-uhn] and [of-tuhn] ]

And how do you pronounce "oft" if not with an "off"?

When you say AW-fuhn, what you're saying is almost "orphan". Which sounds nothing like "often".

Heh..no, I'm not...unless you have a really funny way of saying AW.
"oft" and "off" are identical vowel sounds...and that sound is AW.
Orphan sound is Door sound [and I don't meant creak when it closes due to Ig-or's.]

There are areas in the U.S. where they AH-fuhn...a really annoying nasal AH.

I'm going to keep refining these materials to stockpile for a War of Words!...A verbal Nuk-you-lar Eye-RAN.

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:22 pm**

"or" rhymes with "door". "Aw" (as in "awe") sounds like "or". (Which is why "shock and/or awe" sounds odd.

)

Unless you're one of those weirdos who actually pronounces a distinct R sound.

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:26 pm**

I'm Murrin wrote:"or" rhymes with "door". "Aw" (as in "awe") sounds like "or". (Which is why "shock and/or awe" sounds odd. )

Unless you're one of those weirdos who actually pronounces a distinct R sound.

Heh...this is fun in a pedant-y way [I find pedantry fun, and closely related to PUN-ditry with a touch of I-rony.]
ShAHck, AWe, Or...without consonants...
AH, AW, O...just glide along, it's just the lips funneling forward/narrowing...Any R-sound after any of them is just arching of the mid-front of the tongue. [unless you are Kevin Cronin, singing
"I can't fight this feeling anymoRRRe
I've forgotten what I started fighting foRRRR
It's time to bring this ship into the shoRRRE
And throw away the oaRRR
FoRRRev-eR-R-RRRR."

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:53 pm**

ShAHck? Shark? What? Ock. Not AHk.

Posted: **Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:36 pm**

I'm Murrin wrote:ShAHck? Shark? What? Ock. Not AHk.

Heh...now you're either messing with me on purpose, or are thinking that the SPELLING and the SOUND are necessarily related...but they aren't.
Often, Cough, Aught, Maw...all the same sound "AW"
Shock, Amen, Quantum...same sound "AH"
Hey, May, Neigh...same sound long "A" [which is really a diphthong of 'eh' as in "get" and 'ee' as in "me".....you "get me?" Contrary to Plato and Ayn Rand A is not A. A is "eh-ee."

Posted: **Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:06 am**

"eye-oh-ewe?"

Posted: **Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:24 am**

I'm Murrin wrote:Unless you're one of those weirdos who actually pronounces a distinct R sound.

Don't want to disrupt the fun, but rhotic, nonrhotic accents guys?!

u.

Posted: **Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:08 am**

Gods, I'm really struggling to read your posts recently Vraith.

Anyway, it's a short "o" as in "offal" and "of."

"Off" is more "aw" than "o."

And I pronounce it pretty much like Iolanthe..."offen."

--A

Posted: **Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:28 am**

Vraith wrote:
I'm Murrin wrote:ShAHck? Shark? What? Ock. Not AHk.
Heh...now you're either messing with me on purpose, or are thinking that the SPELLING and the SOUND are necessarily related...but they aren't.
Often, Cough, Aught, Maw...all the same sound "AW"
Shock, Amen, Quantum...same sound "AH"
Hey, May, Neigh...same sound long "A" [which is really a diphthong of 'eh' as in "get" and 'ee' as in "me".....you "get me?" Contrary to Plato and Ayn Rand A is not A. A is "eh-ee."

Not messing with you. Shock is pronounced with an ock. Seriously. I don't see why anyone would pronounce it differently.

Posted: **Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:43 am**

I'm Murrin wrote:
Unless you're one of those weirdos who actually pronounces a distinct R sound.

In march the foreigners and the weirdo is found!

Moreover, most of my R's roll around into random directions, especially concerning words like 'from'.

I pronounce often with a t and a short o, not aaahwffin.

Posted: **Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:34 am**

I'm Murrin wrote:
Vraith wrote:
I'm Murrin wrote:ShAHck? Shark? What? Ock. Not AHk.

Often, Cough, Aught, Maw...all the same sound "AW"
Shock, Amen, Quantum...same sound "AH"

That's daft. Cawf? Shark? I'd love to hear you speak!

Dear dear I've got a cawf!
Oh, I just had an electric shark!

This must be what makes learning English as a second language so difficult. Bough and bow (both as in ouch), unless you mean the thing you put in your hear which is bow (as in boat).

Kevin's Watch

How Do You Pronounce “Often”?

How Do You Pronounce “Often”?