Kevin's Watch

I decided that I might want to try and keep a small journal of my thoughts as I go thru reading LFB for the fourth time. I don’t know how often I might keep it updated, but I’ll be interested to see the conclusions that others who came before me have reached.

Today I started with Chapter 2. Thomas Covenant is reading the pamphlet given to him by the man in the ochre robe. Besides being an excellent summary of the books as a whole, one line towards the end stuck out to me:

“He is implacable in his determination to disbelieve his apparent situation, and does not defend himself when he is attacked by the champion of the other world.”

It is here, I think, that TC is given the answer on how to defeat Lord Foul. Whether or not he realizes it, the seed has been planted in his mind, much as the Elohim hide the location of the One Tree within him to be unlocked. But why is it that an answer cannot be directly given? I have to believe it is because Covenant is not ready for the answer, and the man in the ochre robe knows this. Knowledge learned through trial and fire is more powerful than knowledge freely given. So instead of saying, “do this, and you will triumph,” he merely shows Thomas a path to walk upon, and can only hope he does so. In this way, the Creator is as much like the Despiser when it comes to manipulation, only much more subtle at it. And maybe that’s why it proves to be so much more successful.

I hope you are checking out the chapter dissections in Dissecting the Land. You'll find lots of discussion on the individual chapters there.

I look forward to reading your thoughts.

I had not seen those yet, I will be sure to check them out. Thanks!

Don't forget the fundamental question of ethics, in regards to that pamphlet on the fundamental question of ethics.

He can't just tell Covenant, do this to beat Foul, for what you said about unearned knowledge, but don't forget either that one of the biggest treasures/themes in the series is free will, and choice.

The creator doesn't directly tell him what to do, he puts him in a situation where he will come to the proper conclusion of what to do. Which is of course, passive aggressive manipulation in the extreme. So yes the Creator is as bad as Foul, just hotter.

Chapter Seven: Lena

This is an important chapter in the book for me. Before he had heard the legend of Berek Halfhand, he seemed to be going back and forth as to whether or not he liked what the Land stood for. There was so much good here that he could not experience in his daily life.

I find it quite sad that Covenant considers happiness to be his forbidden fruit. The Land threatens to bring him joy. He doesn't know how long this 'dream' will last, and he worries that if he becomes used to happiness here that he will fall over the edge into madness when he awakens.

Covenant does everything he can to deny the Land's existence. I don't know if he immediately thought of what he did to Lena as rape, or at least, he did not do it for the normal reasons. Instead I got the sense that he was trying to expel the goodness of the Land from his mind and body, and force miserableness upon himself. He does not feel he deserves joy; perhaps if he performs a reprehensible crime the dream will turn into something he is more comfortable with, a place where he is an outcast unclean!

Ah, the beginning of the many woes that befall Trell's family. They just can't catch a break, can they?

I always felt a lot of the thoughts you mention going through Covenant's head were brought about by his stay at the leprosy hospital, particularly being shown the deformed man. Covenant wraps himself in his unbelief defenses to avoid becoming that man. Though it's interesting that he gives in to this one temptation. A choice that ripples through the entire series.

Aiden Victore wrote:“He is implacable in his determination to disbelieve his apparent situation, and does not defend himself when he is attacked by the champion of the other world.”

It is here, I think, that TC is given the answer on how to defeat Lord Foul.

Well, if we were talking the 2nd Chrons, perhaps. But considering that SRD didn't intend to write the 2nd Chrons at this point, I'd have to say there's no way this perspective could have been intended. The point of the 1st Chrons is to learn to fight for beauty/love, fight agaist despair, not refusing to defend himself. Surrender is the theme of the 2nd. Refusing to take part, or to believe, or to love, or to take responsibility is his *conflict* for the 1st Chrons, what he must overcome, rathern than his solution.

I haven't made it back up to book 3 on my re-read so it has been years but, doesn't he essentially defeat Foul with the same kind of passive resistance both times?

He nukes the ill-earth stone, and then instead of striking down Foul like Berek or someone was telling him to, he laughs for the first time in years, and Foul shrivels up like the wicked witch at a waterpark, right?

While he may have been struggling with different issues internally in both cases, seems like he more or less uses the same trick both times.

Mega, get back to me once you finish your reread of all 6. If you truly don't remember the difference, I don't want to spoil it for you. He most certainly does not use the same trick both times.

The thought for the day – I don’t think the Bloodguard could keep the poker faces they do without their psychic mind speak or whatever you want to call it. It allows them to release any pent up frustrations without saying them out loud.

Banner to Korick: How dare this stranger of the Land to mock us!

Korick to Bannor: Peace brother. We will remember. He goes on the list. We will see his destruction, someday.

Bannor to Korick: The Bloodguard do not forget.

Bannor out loud to Covenant: How may I serve?

Bannor to Korick: (together) *snicker*

I also think to pass the time they might have a kind of mind-delve acapella doo-wop group.

All 500 Bloodguard: Whoooaaaaa whooaaa oooo o, for the longest time!

Aiden Victore wrote: All 500 Bloodguard: Whoooaaaaa whooaaa oooo o, for the longest time!

Heh...who's the Haruchai version of Christie Brinkley, what's her name and profession?

Aiden Victore wrote:The thought for the day – I don’t think the Bloodguard could keep the poker faces they do without their psychic mind speak or whatever you want to call it. It allows them to release any pent up frustrations without saying them out loud.

Banner to Korick: How dare this stranger of the Land to mock us!

Korick to Bannor: Peace brother. We will remember. He goes on the list. We will see his destruction, someday.

Bannor to Korick: The Bloodguard do not forget.

Bannor out loud to Covenant: How may I serve?

Bannor to Korick: (together) *snicker*

I also think to pass the time they might have a kind of mind-delve acapella doo-wop group.

All 500 Bloodguard: Whoooaaaaa whooaaa oooo o, for the longest time!

That was so great.
It is the ultimate form of talking behind someone's back, while talking to their face!

Oh gosh, now I can't get this image out of my head, like what if the Blood Guard are really shallow, vapid, bitchy, teenage girls, talking smack about everyone around them in their mindlink?

Bannor to Tuvor: Haha do you see what that Llaura skank is wearing? I know your village just got burned down, but honey have you heard of mascara?!

Fanfiction go, write. Afk, back shortly with results.

During this reread of LFB, I can’t help but dwell on how much of a jerk Covenant is. I mean, we get that you don’t want the Land to be real. But why continue on lashing out at everybody you pass by? Just about everybody in LFB other than the Bloodguard is a pity case. ‘Woe is me’ is a good description of a lot of characters, from Atrian, to Lord Prothall, and finally Covenant himself. Only, TC holds that torch high and proud. If I let them in close to me, if I accept kindness, then I won’t be able to withstand it when I wake back up, so just leave me alone! This comes into play rather strongly during the battle for Woodhalven (sp?), where Covenant reaches a tipping point in jackassery. You can see how strongly he tests the Oath of everyone else in the party. I’m a bit surprised the Bloodguard don’t just cut him off like a cancer right then and there.

I’m also struck by how little politics comes into play in the novel. Everybody is on the same page. They all have the same objectives. Everyone has their own interpretation of how to best serve the Land, but no one gets into a fight over those differences. It’s a bit creepy, and dare I say jarring, when you hold it up to the litmus test of today’s politics, when being from a different party is heresy.

So now here I stand at Treacher’s Gorge. Covenant has made his truce to not be a jerk in exchange for not being looked up to so much. We’re getting ready for the final showdown before we all know what happens. I’m already looking forward to TIW, my favorite book in the first chronicles.

Can't resist more internal dialog amongst Haruchai.

*Korik to Sill: Who farted?*

Aiden Victore wrote:During this reread of LFB, I can’t help but dwell on how much of a jerk Covenant is. I mean, we get that you don’t want the Land to be real. But why continue on lashing out at everybody you pass by? Just about everybody in LFB other than the Bloodguard is a pity case. ‘Woe is me’ is a good description of a lot of characters, from Atrian, to Lord Prothall, and finally Covenant himself. Only, TC holds that torch high and proud. If I let them in close to me, if I accept kindness, then I won’t be able to withstand it when I wake back up, so just leave me alone! This comes into play rather strongly during the battle for Woodhalven (sp?), where Covenant reaches a tipping point in jackassery. You can see how strongly he tests the Oath of everyone else in the party. I’m a bit surprised the Bloodguard don’t just cut him off like a cancer right then and there.

That struck me too when I re-read it a month or two ago. I wanted to smack Covenant out of his stupidity.

Ok, you have to "keep going forward" to get through this. Fine. Then why do you seem to do everything possible to hinder and slow down this "dream"? If you really wanted to get it done then just figure out the magic wedding ring and BAM you're done.

Aiden Victore wrote:I’m also struck by how little politics comes into play in the novel. Everybody is on the same page. They all have the same objectives. Everyone has their own interpretation of how to best serve the Land, but no one gets into a fight over those differences. It’s a bit creepy, and dare I say jarring, when you hold it up to the litmus test of today’s politics, when being from a different party is heresy.

So now here I stand at Treacher’s Gorge. Covenant has made his truce to not be a jerk in exchange for not being looked up to so much. We’re getting ready for the final showdown before we all know what happens. I’m already looking forward to TIW, my favorite book in the first chronicles.

The politics thing ... I got the impression that all of the disagreeing took place in the council's mind-speak. They'd argue it out there and then present a united front to the rest of the world.

I'm getting close to the end of the Illearth War, and I started to think about Troy. Did he die in our world? He fell (8?) stories to concrete below. When he becomes a forestal in training and lives for another 4,000 years, is that him in a coma? Or when the body dies here, is he just stuck in the Land?

And that brought about another question I had not considered before - why didn't he leave the Land when his summoner died? Each time TC comes to the Land, he leaves whenever his summoner passes away (actually, I can't remember if this DID happen in TPTP? I must read on!).

Without straying too far into spoiler territory... he died in RL, and so he didn't get unsummoned when his summoner died.

another name for someone in a coma is Vegetable.

Without straying too far into spoiler territory... he died in RL, and so he didn't get unsummoned when his summoner died.

Since the thing that gets summoned to the Land is the person's consciousness and not his physical body, being in a coma would be enough to keep someone in the Land.

wayfriend wrote:Without straying too far into spoiler territory... he died in RL, and so he didn't get unsummoned when his summoner died.

My impression was that he didn't get unsummoned because his summoner died *as* he was being summoned.

But I thought Troy died in the real world.

I am approaching the end of ILW as well, and I can't remember if this actually happened or if we just discussed it here, but in TPTP, does TC try to look up to see of Hile Troy actually existed?

He tries calling people but they won't tell him anything.