Kevin's Watch

I was reading under some other subjects various member's displeasure with King Joyse. I found this to be interesting. I felt that Joyse was completely justified for his actions. So here is what I pose...

What would you have done in his place? You have an unknown enemy. You have made yourself to strong to be attacked directly. You are the only one with access to the Congery and their strength. There is most likely a traitor in your midst allied with one of your old enemies.

Knowing the circumstances of Mordant's history and the story, how would you go about flushing out the traitor? If Joyse is a "bastard" for what he did to his loyal subjects, what would you have done differently?

For one thing I would never have treated Nyle as he originally did. I would have found some way 2 bring more help 2 the Cares, especially Perdon-when they were under attack. I have other reasons, but want 2 research a little more first...

yeah ditto .. its been a while since I last read MN and posted my pov in the posts you are referring to.

From my unreliable memory .. I objected to the way he treated the people who were loyal to him .. his family for one .. His feigned stupidity is the cause of his wife leaving him with their youngest daughter .. He refused to let anyone into his scheme .. and if you look at it .. it didnt really work anyway .. it totally backfired on him ..

He ultimately was forced to come out into the open and show his true colours anyway! He let Nyle down .. he let Lebbick down .. and he almost lost the fight through his inaction.

He could have flushed out the traitor .. not only by demonstrating that he was absolutely no threat to his enemy .. he could have tried to give some support to Lebbick and others who put their lives on the line .. Joyse was quite prepared to risk his life among others lives too .. His people even those who deserved more from him .. became expendable pawns in his senseless 'game' [of hop-board].

To post more substantively I will have to re-read MN .. I am just recalling my own personal impressions.

But I will .. and will return ..

danlo wrote:For one thing I would never have treated Nyle as he originally did.

It seems to me that he didn't treat Nyle badly, he just didn't aknowledge him in any special way. He also didn't go out of his way in his treatment of any of Geraden's other brothers. The only reason he "favored" Geraden was because he knew from the augery that he would need his help. Same with Artgel. He needed his swordmanship. Seems logical enough. Should he give "favor" to every son of every Lord?

Also if he contrived to help the cares then how would he have continued his charade? If the cares were stronger than they appeared then his enemy's wouldn't have felt secure enough to risk revealing themselves.

Remember with the Perdon, King Joyse expected him to pull his forces back to Orison. He didn't think the Perdon would try and take on Caldwal himself. That was the Perdon's decision. He could have been willing to have more faith in Joyse and pull back. Also Joyse was willing to offer Alend a alliance once he knew that the traitors were in league with Caldwal. I think that if the Lords of the Cares had trusted him more, even though he gave no outward sign of helping them, then they would have faired better.

To me King Joyse represents the issue of Faith. Do you have faith in your King even if he gives no outward sign of deserving that faith. Do you rely on your history and relationship with your King as a basis for your faith? Or does your faith rest on the current circumstances? No to be preachy but this is a classic issue that has faced mankind. Do you believe in a God you cannot see?

Using that analogy I find it interesting to see how the different characters of the story react to Joyse.

Skyweir wrote: From my unreliable memory .. I objected to the way he treated the people who were loyal to him .. his family for one .. His feigned stupidity is the cause of his wife leaving him with their youngest daughter .. He refused to let anyone into his scheme .. and if you look at it .. it didnt really work anyway .. it totally backfired on him ..

So...would you leave your family and those you love in danger? Or get them as far from you as you could so that they would be safe? Again I find his actions are justified if not pretty. I guess it's because I buy into his strategy of making himself weak to draw the danger to himself. If you buy that logic then everything else is justified.

What alternate strategy would you suggest? Using the Conger and spies to root out the traitor and keep the Cares safe? (just for the record - that would make a less entertaining story)

Ok - that last post was mine but some how posted as "Guest" -

Just an FYI!

Lady G you seem eager to justify Joyse's actions and I can even understand why? You love MN and Joyse is a character you liked.

I liked him too .. however .. if he pushed his wife and youngest daughter away all as part of his master plan .. does that infer that Myste and Elega remained with him cos he cared less for them?

In my assessment Joyses master plan was a miserable failure anyway .. and what of Lebbick? How did his plan serve those he loved really?

Everyone felt abandoned or betrayed by him .. and I felt the most palpable example of this was poor Lebbick.

Maybe as you say there was no other way .. and as you also say .. SRD in giving us Joyses plan .. has given us discussion and thought fodder .. None of his characters are perfect .. and Joyse is true to the spirit of Donaldson's work.

If Joyse wasnt the irritatingly feigner of impotence he was .. the story wouldnt have been half as engaging.

To me it was tragic that he reduced his whole plan to a game of hop board .. tragic yet fundamentally profound also! .. Profoundly analogous to real life scenarios.

I really need to re-read MN .. I need to support my impressions with quotes and I cant do that without a re-read .. for that I apologise .. I will however endeavour to rectify this situation.

I haven't read all the book... so prehaps it would be wise to keep my keyboard untapped However I am not wise.

What's with the stupid "Hop board" game? Why doesn't he do anything? Is he planning something?

I think Joyce was justified for his actions. I also think that he had no need to make any apologies for his actions to any brother of Geradens, as he did nothing wrong to said brother.

If you were King Joyse...

... would you have used the same strategy of making yourself weak so you enemies would attack you or would you have come up with a different plan to seek out your enemies?[/b]

I would not have had the inner strength to appear outwardly weak as Joyse did. I thought Joyse's plan was a brilliant one - with the full acknowledgment that many good people suffered terribly as a result of it.

I just couldn't say how I might have done things differently in order to draw out my enemies the way Joyse did, in the situation he was in, trying to juggle so many unknown factors.

That's a pretty good analysis, MM. I agree.

agreed. Although a great strategy, and although I think I could pull off the facade, I don't think I could go that long with so many people I care about getting hurt without striking back .. somehow!
That was an incredible exersise in massive self-control and discipline n the part of Joyce.

Amazing man ... the forerunner of Warden Dios.

the facade may have been necessary ..

i often wonder if that was his only available strategy .. despite being a cunning plan indeed

I wonder if he undertook a cost/benefit analysis .. would the end have justified the means?

Skyweir?? Nice to see you again!

Maybe not a cost/benefit analysis in our modern sense, but I suspect Joyse did go through something like it in his way. Was only that one road open to him to save Mordant? Who knows. Like Usivius, I'm not sure I could've allowed so much harm to come to the good people of Mordant, as Joyse did, without striking back much sooner. But that's the problem with this complex situation: I would've been striking back blindly, and likely would've failed miserably in Joyse's place. All while my enemies kept themselves safe and laughed.

I would never have even considered the plan Joyse used, and, not being able to come up with a better plan, I would have brought on the downfall of the entire world.

There's two ways of looking at it I think. If I just knew about these rouge imagers and needed to catch them I definitely wouldn't have used his strategy or at least not to the degree he went to. His solution should have been to build spy-networks (if he didn't have one already) that would ferret out where Vagel was hiding, who Festenn was plotting with and what went on with the Imagers he gathered into his Congery. This groups after all is not that big. He could spy on each and every one of them with his resources. From what we heard about what went on in Eremis' home (Esmerel) for example it would be pretty easy to conclude that this man is a psychopath and deal with him accordingly.

But who planned Joyce's strategies? It was Adept Havelock. Before he became insane, his policies were brilliant but after he became insane... There was definitely a method in his madness, maybe even genius, but it was still a madman's plan.

But I think the real reason why Joyce did what he did was because of the augury Adept Havelock made about him when he was a baby. Joyce and Havelock believed that the augury must be followed through if they wanted to accomplish their aim (peace and imagery used only for benefit). Either they believed they couldn't escape its destiny or they feared to venture into the unknown. Is it better to follow the known path with all the horrors it held, rather than to carve out your own destiny according to your principles knowing that anything could happen then? I'm not sure I know the answer.

If we accept that the augury must be fulfilled then yes, his strategy was brilliant. He made all the bad things it showed (like one of his daughters betraying him and sleeping with the enemy or another being killed by an imagery product) into advantages or at least minimized their cost. He showed us what real smart guys do when they run into prophecies of doom (i.e. not try to prevent them from happening and thereby ensuring they still happen at an even greater cost)

I don't think I would have thought of his strategy. It was amazing, but was it realistically feasible? I don't know...I'll have to read MN again to work out what I would have done. Maybe we need a "Defend Mordant" thread?

But that was a damn good post SBS.

--A

Agreed, that was an excellent post! I forgot about Havelock's augury. I would have been bound to accept an augury, too, if I were in Joyse's place. Which would have defined my decisions.

A "Defend Mordant" thread? Egad, I suck at strategy. You start.

Hmm. . . I don't think I would have used his strategy. My mind works in other ways, though perhaps not completely unlike his. I'm not going to elaborate on it, just in case I have the pleasure of playing board games with any of you. But I certainly wouldn't have been able to make myself appear weak and watch people suffer.