Linden's (and other characters') externalizations

[Frostheart Grueburn]

[deleted]

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Does anyone even read what I post here? This has sat here for a month without any kind of reaction, as so often happens. Is there something so horribly wrong with it that people are embarrassed to respond, or has the matter ultimately become such that I could post a 50-page treatise about Foul being a purple platypus from Jupiter's 13th moon and nobody would argue?

ETA: Whatever, that's gone now; the general silence couldn't be a clearer message. So much for spending about five hours putting together that text and attempting to begin a discussion. Last time I'm posting anything here. I've had enough of fighting against the plain rude unresponsiveness after contributing a crapload of stuff to this board. Enough is enough.

Had someone else typed a similar thread, quite sure there would've been plenty of interest.

Find someone else to shun.

[[Syl]]

That's just the way it is. Odds are, people read it and appreciated it, just didn't have anything to say. And just because they don't say anything now, doesn't mean they won't in a year or more (well, not now, but...).

You want a conversation, talk about the weather. Or Justin Bieber. But if you enjoy what you wrote, put a lot of thought into it... then enjoy it for the doing. If you want honest criticism or response, put it in the Writer's Circle and ask for the opinions of people you trust.

If you just want to generate response, though... Well, I have no advice to give there, but many people at KW seem to have that skill.

Me, I'm not much for art. Working as an editor at an art and lit mag only made that worse (guess which side I edited). As for writing (don't know what the subject was) there's a chance you're just not good. Which is OK. Some of the best writers wrote crap for years before getting published. Some for years after. Some unappreciated in their time, and most unappreciated by themselves (and for a really good laugh, read some of the negative reviews of Gatsby, Moby Dick, or Donaldson on Amazon).

Or maybe you just missed the mark. Chances are, if you're just getting no response or only nice, assuring responses from friends and acquantainces, you might have missed the subject or audience (or misgauged the audience's level of commitment).

Sure, I've felt ignored before. Unappreciated. At the same time, I've received accolades from my peers here. *shrug* That's kind of why we have the Watchies (I believe you won a few).

And so it goes.

[Zarathustra]

Whoa, what happened here? I haven't been in this forum for a while, but this thread title sounded interesting. I wish I could have read the original post. Who was this, again? W\hoever it was, I notice 24 thanks. She couldn't have been entirely ignored. Damn, what a shame.

[Savor Dam]

The deleted OP was by Frostheart, formerly known as Zorm. She is best known for her artwork...which she has withdrawn as part of her departure from the Watch.

Pardon me for a bit of unvarnished opinion here. Frosty is a brilliant artist and a gifted writer...but a bit inclined toward drama when her posts do not get responded to.

I devoutly hope she comes back and contributes more. I really like her work...but I think I speak for many Watchers when I say that not being able to offer constructive feedback and hesitating to repeatedly post lavish praise is rather different than totally ignoring someone's hard (and inspired) work.

Restoring the links to her existing works, all of which she has apparently denied us in her pique, would also be most sweet.

While I am not so creative as Frosty, years of cooking, writing poems of loving devotion, and generally putting myself out there for people who sometimes don't notice...has taught me that art and service are not about the feedback, they are about the worth of the what you are doing and that the universe has cycles. Someday, what you deserve will come to you.

Further, deponent sayeth naught...those who have paid the slightest attention to the gist of my posting in the last four years know exactly what I am saying.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Sorry you feel this way, XXX. I always had the impression that you were one of the more appreciated members of the forum. Haven't read this specific post. I can only hope this isn't because I still haven't posted the 2nd part of that Bad Writing entry in Mallory. (I Had some problems getting the right tone for that piece.) Anyway, I hope yo'll change your mind and come back.

[Billy G.]

[deleted]

Can I have your White Gold Dollars?

[deer of the dawn]

Frosty, if you see this, I hope you come back soon.

Some of the best stuff I've seen or read here, I don't post any reply to because I just don't know what I could add to it.

I'm not here every day and I don't haunt every corner of the forum often, either, so I often miss valuable contributions, as I did this one. I hope you will reconsider re-posting your writings when things are better.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Perhaps I have indeed grandly misjudged and miscomprehended the board. I've understood it's for discussing the content of SRD's books and derivations of thereof, but apparently these days devoted to debates about American politics, of which I don't know anything. I can always maintain a blog for personal musings with a language more accessible to myself and RL people. And an off-site gallery for the casual throw-in-and-display.

It's easy to say "try this and that" when "this and that" have been tried with poor results (Writer's circle, the worst experience up to date in terms of endeavoring to get feedback. I find it curious people recommend it so much. Perhaps it works for them.); 1,5 years of attempting to coax people to talk back more and the silence growing worse every passing month. Perhaps it's just me, but I fail to feel all fuzzy inside as almost every time I post something more complex, I need to ask for responses, often multiple times. Perhaps Tankers don't see it that way, because, well, this phenomenon never occurs there. Someone copypastes a news article, and, behold, the tread's a beehive. Here, not even a month seems enough (and/or depending on the poster).

I haven't perceived a resurrective trend of old topics either, on the very contrary.

Well, I have no energy to repeat what I've said countless times now, or expect others to see my point of view starting from the fact that everything takes twice-four times the time to type when using a non-native tongue.

Don't see much point in staying, at least not for now, what with the ever-increasing "I don't look/read/comment/reply/offer concrit/visit some particular forum/other reason". Sorry. I came here to talk about books, do collabs and other normal fandom stuff, only to see the gallery fall into a semi-coma, and finding myself deleting duds across the board from the Malazan forum to Vespers, and feeling stupid. I've just had enough of that for now. What's there to do on a small discussion forum where the majority of people decide not to respond and one knows almost for certain that even the next discussion opener will gather mostly dust? Even odder, how is this supposed to encourage someone to contribute more? Perhaps I'm indeed miscomprehended something fundamental here.

Now, think I'm done with the "drama".

And, no, nothing to do with the BW contest. If someone wants to take up hosting the round, they're welcome to do so.

[Zarathustra]

I think discussion of the books picks up each time a new one comes out, or when a new member joins and has things to say that haven't been discussed before. Some of us who have been around for years have already said about as much as we can on these books, and don't feel the same enthusiasm for discussions where we end up repeating ourselves. However, many of us are currently rereading (as you may have noticed ) and finding new things to say. So it will ebb and flow. We're gearing up for the finale of Donaldson's most famous work. I'm sure the Covenant forums will come to life in the coming months.

The Tank has the benefit of dealing with constantly evolving events. Even if we end up repeating ourselves, the context is always changing, casting our thoughts in new light, or offering up new evidence for our beliefs. So it's not exactly a fair comparison to bring it up in this complaint. (Anyone is free to join the Tank discussions, too, if more participation is truly the goal.)

Anyway, you can just look at the dates of the last post in each thread of this forum and see that it's nothing personal ... it's a slow forum.

[dlbpharmd]

I think discussion of the books picks up each time a new one comes out, or when a new member joins and has things to say that haven't been discussed before. Some of us who have been around for years have already said about as much as we can on these books, and don't feel the same enthusiasm for discussions where we end up repeating ourselves. However, many of us are currently rereading (as you may have noticed Cool ) and finding new things to say. So it will ebb and flow. We're gearing up for the finale of Donaldson's most famous work. I'm sure the Covenant forums will come to life in the coming months.

Well said.

[IrrationalSanity]

For what it is worth, I normally check forum sections where I notice a "new" icon lit up. Sometimes, for whatever reason, I don't get to read all of the "new" stuff on a single visit, and on my next opportunity to pass through, I again focus on what's lit, with the fact that I may have missed something from a prior visit slipping my mind.

The forum was lit, and I certainly found the title of this thread intriguing, so imagine my disappointment. Not only was the titular post gone, but so was the poster! I can only imagine what insight it might have held...

[rdhopeca]

For what it is worth, I normally check forum sections where I notice a "new" icon lit up. Sometimes, for whatever reason, I don't get to read all of the "new" stuff on a single visit, and on my next opportunity to pass through, I again focus on what's lit, with the fact that I may have missed something from a prior visit slipping my mind.

The forum was lit, and I certainly found the title of this thread intriguing, so imagine my disappointment. Not only was the titular post gone, but so was the poster! I can only imagine what insight it might have held...

Pretty much how I operate as well...

[High Lord Tolkien]

! I can only imagine what insight it might have held...

It was just your typical THOOLAH rant.
But unlike mine in the past it wasn't witty or funny.

[wayfriend]

Some talk has sprouted up about the various externalizations of Linden and Covenant's traits (and lives outside the Land), so I raked my brain for some parallels I've drawn during the reading process. I couldn't absorb the exact meaning of the term externalization until over the past few months--and then figured it denotes the same concept I coined as varjominä/varjosielu ("shadow-self"). This expression arises from the traditional Finnish belief where a person possesses a multipart soul, and the shadow-self mirrors the true self in a fashion, able to manifest itself outside the body or for instance cause doppelgangers. I'm going to keep utilizing this form, as it's more familiar.

I don't know how well the topic has been perused in the misty dawn of the board, but I shall begin with Linden and half a half-handful of characters. It stands obvious that the Land became plagued by some of her internal conflicts after Foul's last defeat by laughter. The Sunbane and other cyclopean horrors cannot arise from Covenant's state alone: while he does not dance hula around Haven Farm, neither does he wallow in a black mudpuddle of anguish any sane hog would circumvent.

The First

She towers as the most distinctive shadow-self of Linden, her past echoing several of Linden's personal tragedies.

Both lost their fathers to a suicide. Whereas Brow Gnarfist sacrificed himself in a heroic, albeit despairing, attempt to save his daughter and a host of other Giants, Linden's progenitor opened his wrists in a bout of self-spite, cursing his daughter with a hatred that would pursue her for decades. A beeline, or more like a stingier waspline, might be drawn between the storm in the Soulbiter and the onset of Linden's black moods: it seems as if the very same cruel sea drags her down into its unfathomable abysses.

From out of the cracked floorboards and the untended walls had come pouring a flood of darkness. It was not there: she was still able to see everything. [. . .] She was foundering in the viscid midnight of his condemnation, and no rescue could reach her.

Gossamer's mother perished while giving birth to her, thus rendering the Swordmain, no matter how indirectly and unwittingly, the ultimate reason for the loss. "She kenned not her mother's love", Pitchwife explains, and so did not Linden. In her case, she becomes the explicit reaper by suffocating her mother in sickbed--which does not sprawl far off from the concept of childbed.

Both fall in love with an older man, a "grotesque": Covenant appears to traipse about ten years ahead of Linden, and Pitchwife must have left his apprenticeship far behind while working aboard Wavedancer, watching the young Gossamer hoard decades during the voyages. My estimate of their age difference lies somewhere between 300 and 500 years. One can even hear reverberations of Linden's sentiments in the Elohim's masquerade games in Elemesnedene: it transpired that the First loved her husband's spirit and did not cling to him due to pity. In a similar fashion, Linden accepted Covenant's leprosy.

Both possess a dark personality caking a fraying self-assurance: whereas the First elbows such flaws behind a mask of perpetual sternness and Pitchwife, whom she drags everywhere and finds a single day's separation nigh-on unbearable (or, read: Pitchwife is her confidence), Linden has her aloof, clinical professionalism, which ceases to function in the Land. If one must compile fine statistics, both also cry almost as often, in many cases due to maudlin mush: pompous poetry makes the First melt into a puddle of pink goo, Linden snuffles after catching Pitchwife's "shout of love" to the First.

In the end, while Linden does not reach the First's happily ever after including a veritable horde of kids by Giantish standards, she does return to the real world with a mended spirit, and later adopts Jeremiah. Thereafter, the 3rd Chronicles delve into the enchanting wonderland or more or less deranged or tortured offsprings. The First pops up anew as Longwrath's grandmother; Linden's adopted son is locked into the prison of his mind.

* *

I am tempted to believe that SRD uses female characters to externalize Linden's dilemmas and peculiarities. Hollian wields her eh-brand stick--later Linden becomes the rightful owner of the Staff of Law. What other aspects could she echo? How about the other ladies of the 2nd Chronicles, no matter how "insignificant"? Galewrath, Memla, the waynhim in Hamako's kresh that liked lipstick and nose-shadow? Could one extend this quest for analogies to the males? Can one discover fluttering scraps of Linden even in Honninscrave or Seadreamer?

* *

Rime Coldspray

In the 3rd Chronicles, one of Linden's shadow-selves manifests itself again in a Giantess, Rime Coldspray, a mature woman topped with perhaps more gray hair than the anti-heroine. Both have tended a bedlamite who slips free or his/her bindings, and while Linden did not smash Joan's skull in, granting her the white gold ring caterpillared open quite a few ominous, fateful paths winding their way towards the end of all things. Personality-wise, Rime portrays the confidence (And assertiveness?) of the pre-tragedy Dr. Linden, an adept leader of her ward. Both hunt a lost young man, both become lost in Foul's madhouse of schemes and eldritch dangers.

Why Swordmainnir? Granted, life is a struggle, but even so...
Does the Mahdoubt reflect Linden's attributes?

Spoiler

How about the major bogey in the caves, She Who Must Not? Joan herself embodied in a huge, raving clump of despair, or an avatar of Linden's woe? Or both?

Regarding the physical ailments of Covenant and Linden erupting as geological disturbances in the Land (ie. the onset of his leprosy and Kevin's landwasting), at one point I scratched my head over any possible parallels between the decay of Covenant's dead body and the Land's turmoil. Norse mythology provides this...uh...creative insight into the world's geography:

From Ymir's flesh the earth was formed,
and from his bones the hills,
the heaven from the skull of that ice-cold giant,
and from his blood the sea.

Do the skurj that consume even the bedrock of the Land mirror graveworms gnawing on Covenant's bones?

[Zarathustra]

At the risk of rewarding "throwing a drama fit," I'd like to say that's an awesome post. Thanks for rescuing it, WF (however you did it).

I like the comparisons between Linden and other female characters. I feel silly for not making such a comparison myself. It seems pretty obvious in retrospect, once it's pointed out. I've tended to think of externalizations in terms of Foul, ravers,

Spoiler

She-Bane

, etc. It never occurred to me to apply this same logic to more "mundane" characters, but if this world is a shared "dream," wherein our universal characteristics are expressed in particular characters, then every single character subject to this treatment. Also, I've focused on TC rather LA ... a little sexist, perhaps, but I can relate to men better than women, being male myself. I'm very grateful to have this female perspective. Cool.

And sincerely--I'm not one to give out compliments gratuitously--some of the writing here was playful and clever enough to put a smile on my face. Well done.

[wayfriend]

That term externalize is I think a lot more complex than it sounds.

For discussion purposes, let me quote from Donaldson's essay. This is particularly important, because this is how he views externalization.

Put simply, fantasy is a form of fiction in which the internal crises or conflicts or processes of the characters are dramatized as if they were external individuals or events. Crudely stated, this means that in fantasy the characters meet themselves - or parts of themselves, their own needs/problems/exigencies - as actors on the stage of the story, and so the internal struggle to deal with those needs/problems/exigencies is played out as an external struggle in the action of the story.

What I take out of this is three things:
- Characters meet parts of themselves as actors
- They struggle with these actors in some sort of conflict
- Resolving this conflict resolves an internal problem

This, I think, becomes a test. If you can find all of these things, you've found an externalization.

This is obviously true in "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant." The villain of the piece, Lord Foul, is a personified evil whose importance hinges explicitly on the fact that he is a part of Thomas Covenant. On some level, Covenant despises himself for his leprosy - so in the fantasy he meets that Despite from the outside; he meets Lord Foul and wrestles with him as an external enemy.

So we have:
- Lord Foul is a part of Covenant (the part that despises himself)
- Covenant and Foul have a conflict (Covenant must rescue the Land)
- Defeating Foul resolves Covenant's problem (he no longer despises himself because he saved the Land)

The test, so far, seems to work.

So let's try it on the First.

Frostheart has identified quite nicely how the First reflects parts of Linden. The part that deals with the loss of parents; the part that loves; the part that maintains the appearance of confidence. I have no arguments, except I would add: the part that covets power, or at least effectiveness.

However, after that we come up a bit short. What struggle do Linden and the First have? And how is it resolved?

I don't want to doom Frostheart's notions with this line of thought. Because, as I led with above, I think it's more complex.

A somewhat oversimplified way to make the same point is by comparing fantasy to realistic, mainstream fiction. In realistic fiction, the characters are expressions of their world, whereas in fantasy the world is an expressions [sic] of the characters. Even if you argue that realistic fiction is about the characters, and that the world they live in is just one tool to express them, it remains true that the details which make up their world come from a recognized body of reality – tables, chairs, jobs, stresses which we all acknowledge as being external and real, forceful on their own terms. In fantasy, however, the ultimate justification for all the external details arises from the characters themselves. The characters confer reality on their surroundings.

"The world is an expression of the characters."
"The justification of all details arises from the characters."

So, I am thinking: Every aspect of the world is an expression of the character. But a character can't have a conflict with every aspect of the world!!!

I think that battling directly with a part of oneself is not required. I think that what is required is that the struggle happens, and that all the pieces of the fantasy world contrive to have that struggle happen. Because, quite frankly, not every internal problem one might have is a metaphor about fignting against oneself. Or, at least, that's not the only metaphor one can use.

So not only is the First still in the running; she's a shoe-in. Simply by being part of the world Linden finds herself in, she must have arisen from Linden's needs. The only question to answer, then, is how she fills that need.

And now I am thinking of Covenant, lying on the deck of the dromond, in a self-wrought cocoon of culpability. Linden struggles with saving Covenant. And who convinces Linden to save Covenent? The First. How? By discussing effectiveness, and that it is the antipathy of loss. By discussing confidence; by appealing to love. Linden resolves this issue, and in doing so, comes to a better understanding of herself.

I think the First passes the test.

[IrrationalSanity]

OK, that is an amazing analysis, and I am truly sorry that I did not see it or respond earlier. (AND, it is many things, but in no way is it a THOOLAH rant.)

Many thanks for the resurrection of the original post!

<deleted paragraph because on re-reading Wayfriend's post, we're actually in agreement...>

I'll need to come back to the First as externalization after I have time to digest this a bit...

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I'd appreciate it if I were asked first before reposting materials I have had my own reasons to delete. I'm glad people found it interesting, but I have little energy at the moment to join a discussion that initially plunged straight down the toilet.

I have another set of reasons not to join the Tank. Besides, I know scarce morsels about American politics; we have quite enough of problems of our own in a country of five million. Hence, even if the atmosphere were a jot milder, what would I be able to talk about? I don't believe names such as Jyrki Katainen, Timo Soini, vihreät, perussuomalaiset, Ilkka Kanerva, etc. say anything to someone across the pond either.

As for the other things, maybe I'm looking at the wrong threads or equivalent, but I don't see anyone else having to clamor so much for attention over and over again, which I absolutely loathe doing. Most recent threads in the various subforums seem to gain responses within hours. It's difficult not to take it personally, when people just plain vanish again and again, starting from the "helpful" writers' circle (how cumbersome would it have been just to answer "I don't have time" when politely messaged about it, instead of shirking responses for months, in some cases now 21 and counting...) Or call me names. Or don't bother to say even half a thank you when I've worked for hours on their requests. Even the dissection I did three or so months back was an utterly vain endeavor from the point of view of trying to spark up a discussion, and that took two weeks to type. Or the shop, which went downhill once I started trying to reach people and get their opinions on the things they'd asked me to design for them. Poof, vanished, no responses. Kick in a cartful of other cases. Slow forum(s) or not, it's just rude and cold, and I'm tired of it.

That being said, I don't see much point in resuming regular posting.

[Savor Dam]

Yet, you at least popped in for a read. Good to see that you have not left us entirely, as have other lights of the Watch. Examples are many, but I still have no idea what happened to matrixman, and am far too aware of why Furls posts no more.

Please continue to come by, posting when/if you choose. Surely when you get to read TLD, there will be something about your beloved Giants that will move you.

While it is my standard greeting for new members, it applies to those of long standing as well: Welcome to the Watch, Zorm / Frostheart / ___! May you thrive here...and contribute.