Orlion wrote:In my best Esmer impression, I will not let this stand! :^P
I've been on this forum a long time. TC is my favorite series and I have read it dozens of times. However I am not one to gush over everything he does or have a knee jerk reaction to anything he writes as being awesome. I am a critical reader.
that being said, everyone here has their opinion as to the books and some will of course like and accept things that others don't. Thats fine. thats normal. thats expected.
However, it should be noted that Just because this is a forum dedicated to SRD doesnt mean anyone who is critical of this piece or that book is automatically wrong, so statements like "1000 arguments, 0 changed minds" doesn't apply, and is slightly offensive.
Therefore, I am not defending my opinion that TLD leaves a lot to be desired and that I wasn't that crazy about it; its my opinion, there is no right or wrong about it. But what I will do is give the reasons why I feel the way I do so you at least understand my position, if you dont share my sentiment. Agreed?
Orlion wrote:While we're at it, why include Lord Foul? He doesn't grow as a character, is always whining about how everything sucks and how unfair it is that he's trapped in Time, etc. etc.
It's different. Foul is in EVERY Book. He has Changed in each Chronicle, even though he never stops being evil, he changes his tactics. Remember, Foul is used as a foil for evil, He is an
Archetype. Archetypes are the foil against which the protagonist challenges himself , gorws, then fails or succeeds. so of course he wont "grow" as a character. He isn't supposed to!
Orlion wrote:Covenant never had much to do with his son, and has not for thousands of years (from his perspective). When he does meet his son, Roger is a psychopath afraid of death and trying to kill everything so he can become god and avoid his mortal coils. And several times, Covenant ponders over his responsibility for his son, does not immediately blast him to atoms, etc. I understand we do not get much in the way of Roger's POV, but it is there in his actions, desperation, and part Foul decided he would play.
Do you have kids? I do. While I understand Roger was taken away from him by Joan, he was still his Son. During the 10 years between C1 and C2, Covenant wouldve or should've tried to contact him if he was any kind of human being, especially one with such a focus on right/wrong and responsibility as TC has always shown. Not having much to do with a son isnt the same as being completely aloof and not even flinching when he is killed right in front of you. Readers should be able to empathize with characters, and TC's complete lack of a bond with Roger jars me out of the story because as a parent, it's hard to accept.
I know people who have had kids taken by estranged spouses and dont see them for decades. But there is something there simply because its their child. As a Father I cannot accept TC would be completely aloof to Roger.
There was never any interaction or bonding or character development of Roger at all, not in 4 long books. His dialog was jarringly out of sync to the text, and in the end he adds nothing except another random foe.
Therefore, Roger is absolutely a 1 dimensional character who adds nothing.
SRD missed a great story line in not developing this bond between TC and Roger, and having Roger grow as a character, so that in the end this could be a resolved plot point rather than a jarring realization that
TC didnt even flinch or take notice when his son was brutally killed right in front of him.
you argue it had been millenia since he has seen or heard from roger. The exact same is true for him not seeing Linden, Joan or any others he cared about in the Land. He killed Joan and felt something, but there is never any indication he felt anything for his son. at all.
2. SHMNBN was likewise a very thin thread with no satisfying explanation or ending. If she had ended up being Miassomer (sp=? but you know, Mrs. A Jeroth) it would have made some sense. The whole "Pink hand of God" sucker punch she gave Foul at the end didnt even make sense. He isnt even a corporeal being, and not even being stuck by the Krill will change that. Why all of the sudden can anything knock him flat?
Orlion wrote:You know who else isn't a corporeal being? SHMNBN. They are both beings outside of Time, and She seems to harbor some resentment to Foul, of course she'll smack him around to prevent him from leaving through the Arch. Think about it this way: you are in a mess because of some idiot and are now running from zombies. You are very upset and, while escaping, decide to trip the idiot and keep running. That's how I view She's reaction, she's escaping through the Arch, happens to notice Foul, and so trips him.
And personally, I'm not disappointed that we do not get a name... she's an eternal being from Outside of Time, for Christ's Sake, if she had any name that required less then six tongues and a few tentacles to pronounce, THAT would be lame.
Where did you get the idea She had a huge grievance against Foul? From the text we have exactly NO viewpoint on SHMNBN. AFAIK, we don't know what her relationship or attitude was toward Foul. I don't remember ever reading anything that suggested her opinion or position toward Foul.
If I have missed this in the text, please point it out to me.
We could argue Linden whispered to her as they were doing whatever it was before they dropped into Mt Thunder, "Hey? Wanna do me a favor and sucker Punch this guy whose been giving me trouble?" but then, SRD would have, or should have explained that. But its never explained, or mentioned.
ALso, Foul is a lot stronger than any Bane or being, so why should She be able to knock him flat? because he got stuck with a blade fashioned by Loric? Nope.
I agree with you, some name no one heard before would be Lame! It would have no meaning. How about her name being A Jeroth's estanged Mrs (Diassomer whatever)? It would have tied the whole thing together well, SRD missed a great chance there, as well.
3. How is it that the Elohim didnt know how to put the worm back to sleep, and the, all of the sudden, they did?
Orlion wrote:It's the difference between the Worm being ravenous and devouring Elohim and the Worm being sated with Earthblood. That'd be like turkey legs trying to get Grandpa to go to sleep before Thanksgiving dinner: it's just not going to happen before they get devoured.
There is exactly no support for it in the text. Infelice didnt say "Well, the worm was pretty full, so we played some
Jim Nabors All Time Christmas Favorites CDs and it put him right out." All she said was they put him back to slumber ( I don't have the the book in front of me).
The Elohim are Earthpower Incarnate. D
on't you think that they would have known if the Worm got full they would have the ability to put it to sleep? Is it possible that they Didn't know this, but knew everything else about the worm? Sorry, no. The Elohim were terrified of the WOrm because they were its food. If there was the remote possibility that the Worm could be returned to slumber, they would know and plan for this. However, There was NO explanation for their sudden knowledge. So therefore it seemed very contrived.
SRD didn't explain a great many things in TLD and its very jarring, as opposed to the previous chrons.
4. How is this ending in any sense "more enduring" that WGW? After WGW he needed millenia to come back. Currently, Foul sis a separate entitiy inside TC. If TC DIes, loses his mind, or succumbs to possession, then He is back. It wont take millenia for that to happen.
Orlion wrote:Foul is as much a separate entity as Mahrtir is a separate entity from the new Forestal. That is: not really and certainly not long enough. Taking in Foul changed Covenant, and I imagine being a part of Covenant will change Foul to the point where they will become a different being (much like how Brinn and the Theomach became Ak-haru, and so on and so forth.)
I didn't get that from the text. TC explicitly says that Foul is still inside him and the description is clear Foul is still himself. There was no mention of any merging of the two identities, or that TC Changed in any way as a result of the merging, other than gaining knowledge. If they had merged, SRD would have explicitly described the new entity, and I dont think he would fail to do that. So, no, I dont aree. If I'm wrong, please direct me to the reference.
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5. It was stated repeatedly that the Haruchai NEVER confronted Foul. Sure they did" Korik, Sill and Doar did so in TIW, under the influence of the Illearth Stone. (Note to self: Don't get stoned and try to confront Evil...)
Orlion wrote:It is stated they did not do so with Covenant. Bannor did not join Covenant the first time, Cail did not join him the second time. This is the first time a Haruchai has been with Covenant when he has faced off with Foul.
If it said that they hadn't faced Foul with Covenant, then, of course, you are correct. I didnt pick up on that.
6. TC and Linden both entered ceasures, but how come every time they do it again, its a gigantic deal and theyll all almost surely die? It was done to death.
Orlion wrote:A deadly threat/risk is a deadly threat/risk no matter how often you do it. It'd be silly if the ceasures ceased to be threatening..
Meh. The first time it was awesome. But it gets old, and it became too convenient.
7. TC has had the Krill and Gold ring before in 2C, but suddenly, with a few minutes of reasoning, and Poof! he can translate himself and his company across tens of leagues. Pretty convenient. too convenient.
Orlion wrote:It's not really Poof! when it drains him and he needs someone to carry him every time after the first time and still needs someone like the Ranyhyn or Haruchai to point him in the right direction. It also never occured to him to try something like that in the 2C... he did not need to, the World was not about to end if he did not travel several hundred miles in a half hour.
What I dont buy is that all it takes him to figure it out is a few sentances of "Well, lets see, I wonder how I could travel really far, really fast with this here ring and blade" and then all of the sudden, with one shot, he figures out something very specific. It doesnt matter at all to the explanation that it tires him out or drains him. The knowledge itself was just way too contrived. Its too easy, too convenient. Maybe it would have been better if some conversation between Linden and Covenant clued him in to an idea, or perhaps his own experience in a ceasure gave him some insight.