Kevin's Watch

After the world has been destroyed by the Earthpower sated Worm and rendered into Oblivion, TC, Linden and Jeremiah follow it around, pick up the peices and stick it all back together just the way they want it to be.

It has it's Giants and it's Haruchai. The Waynhim and Ur-Viles are reformed perfectly and given a new 'weird' to account for it. Hellfire, we even have a smiling Stave proffering the hand of peace to anybody and every body who wants to take it. It's all exactly as it should be and is capped of with a beckoning Insequant [SRD himself?] from a hill top and a rainbow for TC et al to walk off into. But it's all fake. Stave is dead. The Ironhand [or whatever her title was] is dead. They're all dead! The World and the Land and Home and the Westron Mountains - they're all no more. The transfigured clones of the people TC loved have just been cobbled together from the bits and peices into a mawkish Utopia within which TC and Linden can gaze into each others eyes forever more and where Jeremiah gets to play 'constructs'. The rebuilt world is no more 'the World' and the people we knew no more those people than clone of 'Dolly the Sheep' is actually Dolly. They are an offensive pastiche of whatever TC wants them to be - the ultimate exercise in creating a playground ala Michael Jacksons 'Neverland'. Ughh!

...unless the dynamic trio managed to repair - rather than remake - the Earth. Something that SRD is rather unclear on, I grant you.

As I've said elsewhere, if one presumes that TC, LA and Jerry have enough vast Creator-like power to recreate the Land from scratch, why wouldn't they have added Anele - or Galt, or Foamfollower or whoever - into the mix? So to me, it's a repair job in the nick of time.

I do firmly agree about the overly cutesey "Carebear Land" ending though... hardly emotionally wringing and utterly unlike the 1st and 2nd Chrons.

Well, the Giants . Haruchai and Elohim left on the crumbling world as TC Linden and Jeremiah ascended on rainbows and clouds had their memories left intact when they were met again in the denoument. This means that they were restored intact with memories and (we assume) no other differences. They were themselves. Therefore I tink it is different that being cloned or whatnot. Take my consciousness, put it in another identical body, Im still essentially me.

My problem is , as you have said, why could they not have saved their friends who died along the way?

Did they restore the Laws of Death and Life? It seems to me that would be the thing to do, while fixing everything else. Maybe that's why there were no Dead in Andelain in the epilogue.

dlbpharmd wrote:Did they restore the Laws of Death and Life? It seems to me that would be the thing to do, while fixing everything else. Maybe that's why there were no Dead in Andelain in the epilogue.

I would assume the various Laws like Life, Death, etc were restored anew. But of course there is no mention of this in the text.

You're probably right but it would have been good to have Mhoram and SaltHeart, Loric and others there to bear witness

Peter, I do not have a pat answer for you...but perhaps going back to SRD's influences will shed light.

I am not sure. Let's reread C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle and see if it helps. Certainly it is a parallel "Everybody dies" end to an established series, and SRD has said many times how much the Narnia books shaped him.

I've been thinking about this now that I've finished TLD and have a better idea about what SRD was trying to do in the Last Chrons.

The key seems to be the 'psychological process' that he was following through on. We contain Despite and TC's drawing in of Foul is the final enactment of that. Essentially the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant end there. I think that SRD was stuck a bit then because the world that he had created for those Chronicles also ended at that point.

Personally, I would have preferred the story to have returned to the 'real' world where the lessons learned could be best applied. As it is we are left with world that, paradoxically, seems less than before because Foul is no longer an essential part of it.

The more I am coming to understand SRD's intent the less disappointed I am with the Last Chrons as an undertaking. I see now why SRD was daunted by it as I'm not really sure that it easily lends itself to being told as a story. It seems closer to philosophy/depth psychology/metaphysics than the material for a fantasy novel.

u.

Good answers guys and thanks for not subjecting me to the barrage of scorn and abuse I probably deserved

The repair hypothesis is a good one - I won't pretend that I don't see major problems with the idea that the Worm could have drunk of the Earthblood, blasted the earth to smithereens and that it could have all been rebuilt in the blink of an eye to the point where the Earth's inhabitants did not even feel the shift, but hey, given that it could be done at all, why not!

At the end of the day it's what we've got and it's what we have to live with.

ussusimiel wrote:I've been thinking about this now that I've finished TLD and have a better idea about what SRD was trying to do in the Last Chrons.

The key seems to be the 'psychological process' that he was following through on. We contain Despite and TC's drawing in of Foul is the final enactment of that...

...It seems closer to philosophy/depth psychology/metaphysics than the material for a fantasy novel.

u.

I agree with you, u - I recently gave a fairly amateurish Jungian interpretation of the Last Chrons in this post here. Like you, I am sure that SRD's goal was to give us an allegory on his own psychological/philosophical/metaphysical world view - in fact in the two interviews I quoted from in the linked post above, he stresses the importance of understanding his psychological paradigm in order to be able to "guess the ending" of TLD.

Having said that, I stand convinced that SRD overdid the allegory in TLD and sadly sacrificed the demands of narrative, characterisation and plot in so doing.

Do you guys think his metamorphosis from storyteller to [searching for the right word] metaphysical allegoricalist (?) was a wise move. I think he was a better storyteller - and taking what you [u. and theFallen] guys see as this development to indeed be the case [as say opposed to the 3rd Chrons just suffering from say 'over-reach' ie he just wasn't good enough at the kind of writing he was trying to pull off - 'dostoyevskian' I have heard it called] then maybe my attemps to read them at the story level were doomed to failure from the start. The question is then, has he succeded in producing a peice of 'great writing' at the level you speak off? Will this go down as his 'Magnum Opus'; will it secure his place amongst the Greats in future years?

[nb. Couldn't get on with Dostoyevski either!]

"The question is then, has he succeded in producing a peice of 'great writing' at the level you speak off? Will this go down as his 'Magnum Opus'; will it secure his place amongst the Greats in future years?"

I sincerely doubt it.

Me too Condign, but I'm forever suprised at the level of support the 3rd Chrons actually has on the Watch - and have not the slightest doubt that it is a genuine love of the last series that promotes this. I've seen a number of posters name the Last Chrons as their favorite of the three and I'm left wondering how people who like the one can also like the other. But of that they do, there can be no doubt.

pete the ageing savage wrote:Me too Condign, but I'm forever suprised at the level of support the 3rd Chrons actually has on the Watch - and have not the slightest doubt that it is a genuine love of the last series that promotes this...

I also felt this way when I first joined the Watch a couple of years ago, but I have come to understand the situation better in the interim. The reason that there seems to be such a high level of support for the Last Chrons is that many of those who are disappointed with them have stopped reading the series or refrain from commenting on them. My best guess is that the split is something like 2/3 disappointed. 1/3 happy. However, if you only look at those posting in the LCs threads you might get the impression that most people are happy with the LCs.

This is quite understandable for a number of reasons. Firstly, just about everyone who joins the Watch is a fan of SRD, so to spend time and energy dissing him goes against the grain. Secondly, once you have expressed your disappointment about one of the books in the LCs, how many times are you going to repeat the same thing (as the criticisms are basically the same for all the books in the series). Personally, I sustain my criticism through my THOOLAH activities, which brings an element of humour to it all and is something that SRD is actually aware of (follow this link and download the famous 'taking names' Intro 4 video). This allows me to be involved in the discussion, which I would otherwise be disappointed to miss.

A quick survey of the threads started since some people have finished reading TLD shows that most of them are disappointed with it. I'm looking forward to a few more positive ones being added when some of longtime advocates of the LCs finally finish the book (get on with it guys! ).

u.

[Double post.]

pete the ageing savage wrote:...The question is then, has he succeded in producing a peice of 'great writing' at the level you speak off? Will this go down as his 'Magnum Opus'; will it secure his place amongst the Greats in future years?

I think his place among the Greats (at least my Greats) was secured with the 1st and 2nd Chronicles. SRD himself has acknowledged this in some of his interviews. The quality and intensity of some of the early writing (my own favourite is TIW) stands out, so much so, that when SRD began writing the Last Chrons he was daunted by his previous achievement.

Personally, I find the writing in the Last Chrons very poor. I think that it is constantly hampered by the lack of pacing, the complexity of the plot and the innumerable characters. I know that it is not that SRD has lost the ability to write well because when he was freed up a bit in FR (by going back into the Land's past) the writing shone again.

An intuition I had after finishing TLD and reading some of the interviews related to it, is that the bringing of Covenant's story to its psychological conclusion may have had psychological implications for SRD himself. Some of the difficulty that he had with the writing of the series may have been related to his own resistance. I know that this is pop psychology but it might help explain why the LCs arrived in the tortuous form that they did.

u.

pete the ageing savage wrote:Good answers guys and thanks for not subjecting me to the barrage of scorn and abuse I probably deserved

At the risk of attracting the barrage expected, but not realised, by Peter, I must say this.

Knowing absolutely nothing about psychology, physics, the art of fictional writing, etc. etc. it doesn't worry me one bit that the sun disappeared when it apparently shouldn't have and the earth should have got cold; I didn't suddenly say to myself "huh, he didn't write that bit very well". What I read was a work of fiction and I enjoyed it. I was satisfied with the story, and the ending. Good grief! You call Linden a whiner! I shall start a new movement - THOOLDL (The Holy Order of Last Dark Lovers), in the best possible taste of course.

On the other hand I am enjoying reading the comments on this and other TLD threads. Gosh, what a lot I missed, and how glad I am that I did.

Iolanthe wrote:At the risk of attracting the barrage expected, but not realised, by Peter, I must say this.

Knowing absolutely nothing about psychology, physics, the art of fictional writing, etc. etc. it doesn't worry me one bit that the sun disappeared when it apparently shouldn't have and the earth should have got cold; I didn't suddenly say to myself "huh, he didn't write that bit very well". What I read was a work of fiction and I enjoyed it. I was satisfied with the story, and the ending. Good grief! You call Linden a whiner! I shall start a new movement - THOOLDL (The Holy Order of Last Dark Lovers), in the best possible taste of course...

If peter didn't receive a barrage, you certainly won't, Iolanthe

In the defence of the whiners (and in this we may have been unconsciously formed in the image of Her Whineyness ), it may be that we loved the 1st and 2nd Chrons incondignly, but we also didn't find any real inconsistencies in them. The changing of the colour of the moon we could accept, similarly the Sunbane, because even though they seemed to defy the laws of physics, there were plausible explanations put forward to explain them. I would also add that the inconsistencies that we find in the rationale for physical phenomena mirrors other inconsistencies that, for us, mar the Last Chrons in ways that we find upsetting.*

Also, we enjoy whining!

u.

* Granted that SRD was putting his entire edifice under absolute strain (as only he could) and it may be that his previous strategy, of only working out the minimum necessary for the story, left him with insoluble inconsistencies.

OK. So the summoning of TC from outside the land, the obviously visible health of the land, the healing properties of hurtloam (mud) and aliantha don't defy the laws of physics? The land is wonderful (I've just read LFB again after a long time and just started TIW) but it is a fantasy.

Iolanthe wrote:OK. So the summoning of TC from outside the land, the obviously visible health of the land, the healing properties of hurtloam (mud) and aliantha don't defy the laws of physics? The land is wonderful (I've just read LFB again after a long time and just started TIW) but it is a fantasy.

Not to be picky, Iolanthe, but all the things you mention are explained by Earthpower and in terms of the laws of physics of the Land they are perfectly acceptable because they are consistent with what SRD (as far as he does) explains what Earthpower is within the story.

In my experience of fantasy there is usually an explanation for why the usual laws of nature can be overcome or do not hold; this is also usually the 'magic' of that particular fantasy world. But, that magic needs to have its own consistent 'laws' or else anything goes and in such a case there can be no real room for a story because a story depends on cause and effect. If cause and effect can be suspended then nothing can happen that can't be undone and so the very notion of a narrative disappears.

As a reader, when an author contradicts the laws of their created world we experience this as 'cheating' because even in a fantasy, as human beings, we need some sense of justice or fairness. If something bad happens it shouldn't be immediately fixable by the 'good' guys, and vice versa. Some effort needs to be put in to overcome the physical laws of even a fictional world. Frodo may have the most powerful magical object in Middle Earth but he still has to travel thousands of miles to destroy it. If he could just go 'Abracadabra' and make it disappear a great story doesn't get told. Similarly with TC, he also has the most powerful magic object in the Land but he can't just make Lord Foul disappear without there being consequences. If he could, no story. And once there is cause and effect it must be consistent. Laws are laws for a reason. They are absolute, they cannot be contradicted without undermining the very foundations of even a fantasy world.

With the best fantasy not only does the author maintain a consistent set of physical laws but whenever 'our' laws are contravened it has metaphorical or allegorical implications. It is important, and when you investigate it it yields up meaning that can have real-world impact on our lives. The 1st and 2nd Chrons were really important for many people, this was due to their quality. So far the Last Chrons haven't matched that and this has disappointed people. In my case. however, now that the series is over I am finally beginning to get a sense of what SRD was trying to do and, for the first time with this series I am excited to be finding the kind of meaning that I found in the earlier series.

Hopefully it means that I will be doing less whinging!

u.

Thank you for that explanation U. I have an inkling now of the problems some of you are having with TLD. My reading of fantasy books is limited to the Chronicles, Lord of the Rings/Hobbit, Discworld and the Alan Garner books that I read as a child, and I have no urge to read any more. The Chronicles were not life changing for me - I read them in my early thirties and found them a good escape from daily life and two demanding children. However they did grip me in a way a series of books had never gripped me before. That's why I'm here.

Frankly, I don't care if the sun is a many faceted glass ball hanging from a string. It disappeared, that was the important part for me; how or where it went I care not. I'm still astonished at the strong feelings, even vilification, that the book has evoked in one or two members of the Watch.

To revert to the first post and meaning of the thread, Infelice says "You have made the world new". Caerwood ur-Mahrtiir says "Much of lands and peoples, of wood and mountains, has been laid waste, much that cannot be restored. Yet much remains." So the world had been "mended" as far as possible. It wasn't perfect. As far as the group-hug is concerned, I would have loved to become reacquainted with Morham, Foamfollower etc. again, but it would have been just too much if they had suddenly appeared with the survivors of TLD. Andelain was the obvious mustering place, but I should have like to see the survivors in their own surroundings some time after their reincarnation or whatever it was; the Haruchi in Revelstone, the Giants in Seareach, the Ramen and Ranynn on the plains and Caerwood in Salva Gildenbourne.

ussusimiel wrote:it may be that we loved the 1st and 2nd Chrons incondignly

Like Othello the Moor - not wisely but too well!