Kevin's Watch

Zarathustra wrote:I can never keep those damn ravers straight. I read their names and just gloss over which ever one it is. They're pretty much interchangeable, right?

Linden was possessed by another Raver at the end of WGW. Maybe that's what SRD was talking about in TLD?

The three ravers do represent different aspects of despite. I'd have to go look, but their names have meanings.

Kin Slaughterer reveled in despite that would turn men against their own family and friends, essentially losing and killing their own identity. SRD's notion that "we become that which we hate".


Flesh Harrower caused despite through violence and death, leading the
assault of Revelstone, the Lands own defense.

Soul Crusher was the last, who possessed the giant at Fouls Creche at the end of TPTP, right? I forget.

Satansfist (samadhi) was the leader of the siege on Revelstone in TPTP. Kinslaughterer and Fleshharrower were the two that appeared in TIW.

I'm Murrin wrote:Satansfist (samadhi) was the leader of the siege on Revelstone in TPTP. Kinslaughterer and Fleshharrower were the two that appeared in TIW.

dang it, now I gotta go look it up.

Turiya Herem Kinslaughterer - killed the Giants of Seareach, didn't have much to do in the 2nd Chronicles (he's mentioned at the end of WGW when Linden is possessed by moksha,) but possessed Joan in ROTE, ultimately destroyed by Clyme and Branl. My feeling is that he's the greatest of the Ravers, or at least Foul's favorite and most trusted.

Moksha Jehannum Fleshharrower - Led Foul's army in TIW, possessed the 2 Ramen at the Colossus in TPTP, possessed Marid and attacked Covenant with venom in TWL, possessed the swarm of bees that attacked Covenant just prior to the events at Crystal Stonedown (also in TWL.) He possessed Linden in WGW and was defeated. He has been the primary Raver in the Last Chronicles, being responsible for every manifestation except Joan.

Spoiler

He possessed and was defeated by Jeremiah, and presumably survives the fall of the Arch into the new world. I think of him as the weakest Raver. He's all by his lonesome now.

Samadhi Sheol Satansfist - led Foul's army in TPTP, defeated by Mhoram in what may be the single best moment in the entire saga. Possessed Gibbon na-Mhoram and led the Clave through all of its depredations including building and maintaining the Banefire. Responsible for the murder of countless citizens of the Land and Haruchai. Defeated by Grimmand Honninscrave and rent by Nom Sandgorgon, who consumed the remains. However, this ultimately led to a sort of possession of future Sandgorgons.

Spoiler

After the battle at the base of Mt Thunder in TLD, when the Fire Lions destroy those Sandgorgons, one would presume that's the last of samadhi.

Back to the ravers:

dlbpharmd wrote:Turiya Herem Kinslaughterer - ... My feeling is that he's the greatest of the Ravers, or at least Foul's favorite and most trusted.

Interesting. I always thought samahdi was his favorite, or at least the strongest. He seemed to get the biggest jobs. Led the army against Revelstone and Mhoram, corrupted the Council into the Clave. I seem to recall he was also the one who possessed the King of Doriendor Corishev.

iQuestor wrote:The three ravers do represent different aspects of despite. I'd have to go look, but their names have meanings.

That I don't remember but didn't the Unfettered One who read the history of the Land in the rock, and was killed by moksha in TPTP, tell of the ravers history.

Samadhi always gets to possess people in positions of command, while the other two tend not (except for Fleshharrower).

I always get the other two mixed up, though.

Damelon wrote:Back to the ravers:

dlbpharmd wrote:Turiya Herem Kinslaughterer - ... My feeling is that he's the greatest of the Ravers, or at least Foul's favorite and most trusted.

Interesting. I always thought samahdi was his favorite, or at least the strongest. He seemed to get the biggest jobs. Led the army against Revelstone and Mhoram, corrupted the Council into the Clave. I seem to recall he was also the one who possessed the King of Doriendor Corishev.

I know what you mean, and I remember feeling that way too. I thought that SRD talked about this in the GI, but I can't find anything other than he doesn't believe a hierarchy exists among the Ravers.

My thoughts on this have changed over the years as I've looked back over the Chronicles. For example, turiya massacred the Giants of Seareach. You just know all 3 Ravers were clamoring for that job. He also got to possess Joan, and while doing so had wild magic at his command. For these crimes along, if for nothing else, I'm glad he got what was coming to him.

dlbpharmd wrote:...while doing so [Turiya] had wild magic at his command.

Interesting point. IIRC, in TPTP Triok told Covenant that Foul would never allow a Raver access to wild magic because of the risk that it would be used to depose him and take his place. That's why the mastered Elena held the ring.

Need to confirm that, but potentially another inconsistency in the LCs...

If memory serve me correctly. The raver were forbidden by Foul to posses Thomas. Due to overthrowing their master.
But only once did Covenant place his ring in the hand of one of the lands people. The old loremaster at Revelwood.
The lords(and others) of Covanant's 1st visit and those who came afterwards
knew of it and whom it belonged to.
Also Stave when holding it or returning it to Linden.
The Theomach and Barek felt the rings.
The Theomach was gladden to know of it's existance while
Barek understood it as power incarnate.

Only outsiders have held/used the wild magic(white gold.)
Thomas
Linden
Hile Troy
Foul.

I don't believe turiya could compel Joan in the use of wild magic. I think her madness and the necessity of freedom meant all the Raver could do was goad her in her assaults on the Arch.

If memory serve me correctly. The raver were forbidden by Foul to posses Thomas.

TC talks about this to Clyme and Branl in TLD, chapter 4:

Have you never wondered why none of the Ravers has ever tried to possess me?......Because they're afraid. They're all afraid.....of course they're afraid of Lord Foul. But I'm guessing they're also afraid of leprosy. They're afraid of what it might be like to possess a body and a mind as sick as mine. They're afraid of all this numbness, and going blind, and feeling crippled not to mention impotent even when they have wild magic to play with.

Thinking on it today, samadhi seemed to specialize in long term possession, and was quite capable of executing long term plans.

moksha is tough but doesn't seem to be the brightest bulb.

turiya seems the most sadistic, kind of like Tommy, Joe Pesci character in Goodfellas. But, like Tommy, he lets his sadism get the better of him.


Just comparing the giant-ravers as a means of comparing their personalities:

samadhi-Satansfist was cunning during the siege of Revelstone adjusting his tactics to the situation presented him. His final confrontation with Mhoram was, I agree, the high point of the series.

moksha-Fleshharrower wasn't very bright, thinking that there were no forestals left in Garroting Deep, but it did take quite an effort to kill him, Mhoram felt the giant-raver's death struggle echo in Garroting Deep in his dream state.

turiya-Kinslaughterer was most viciously violent, but he also was the easiest of the giant-ravers to be killed. Lord Hyrim and the three Bloodguard snuck up on him while he was engrossed in trying to bend the sea to his will and managed to kill him on the quay.

That's a question for SRD at the Elohimfest: Do you see the ravers as having distinct personalities, strengths nad weaknesses?

Please come to Albuquerque next June and ask, Murrin...or (if you must) delegate the question to someone else to ask.

You articulated it as an actual question first. It is yours to ask.

We should probably split off a raver thread. I plead guilty to pushing the thread off topic.

I concur with those who think the 3 ravers differ in their personalities and abilities. There was a discussion once that analized their names and connected them to their traits. Here: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20193 Turiya is definitely the worst of the three imo.

Damelon wrote: turiya-Kinslaughterer was most viciously violent, but he also was the easiest of the giant-ravers to be killed. Lord Hyrim and the three Bloodguard snuck up on him while he was engrossed in trying to bend the sea to his will and managed to kill him on the quay.

There are many who believe this lapse was intentional on his part. He left them alive and let them kill him in order to tempt the Bloodguard to fall under the IllEarth shard's sway. Probably one of Foul's plan's and not Turiya's.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I concur with those who think the 3 ravers differ in their personalities and abilities. There was a discussion once that analized their names and connected them to their traits...

"Analized"? "ANALIZED"???

Yikes! That must have been a very probing discussion that really got to the bottom of things... I mean, we've repeatedly been told that the Ravers' possession of people feels like an unnatural violation - and I guess we now know why.

Just for the record, analyse (or analyze, if you really must) has an ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL "y" in it... and no "i" whatsoever. Remembering this tricksy yet vital little fact might serve you in good stead and save on potential embarrassment in the future, in case you should ever unwittingly answer entirely the wrong sort of small ad if seeking psychological therapy, for example.

This has been a public service announcement.

TheFallen wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I concur with those who think the 3 ravers differ in their personalities and abilities. There was a discussion once that analized their names and connected them to their traits...

"Analized"? "ANALIZED"???

Yikes! That must have been a very probing discussion that really got to the bottom of things... I mean, we've repeatedly been told that the Ravers' possession of people feels like an unnatural violation - and I guess we now know why.

Just for the record, analyse (or analyze, if you really must) has an ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL "y" in it... and no "i" whatsoever. Remembering this tricksy yet vital little fact might serve you in good stead and save on potential embarrassment in the future, in case you should ever unwittingly answer entirely the wrong sort of small ad if seeking psychological therapy, for example.

This has been a public service announcement.

As SRD would say, behind every mistake there waits a deeper truth waiting to be discovered. Thank you Fallen

dlbpharmd wrote:
Samadhi Sheol Satansfist - led Foul's army in TPTP, defeated by Mhoram in what may be the single best moment in the entire saga. Possessed Gibbon na-Mhoram and led the Clave through all of its depredations including building and maintaining the Banefire. Responsible for the murder of countless citizens of the Land and Haruchai.

I believe that samadhirelished the task of corrupting the Council and beginning the debasement of Mhoram's name. He hated our favorite Lord, after all. Not only was he "daunted" when he deigned lay hands upon Mhoram near Hotash Slay, Mhorom, well, kind of slaughtered what HAD to have been one of his best raver-rides in who knows how long!

At any rate, it makes perfect sense for several reasons for SSS to want that na-Mhoram desk job.

And while on the subject of the ravers, any theories as to why Branl, Clyme and the krill could;why Nom and Grimmand kinda could; but the Forestals, acknowledged badasses of the Land and merciless, Elohim-derived avengers of tree-butchers could not?

I recall a moksha POV where he remembers his slaying in the Illearth War, and how his spirit very nearly perished. Was it possible for a Forestal to almost, but not quite, slay one of their foes? That, well, stinks.