Kevin's Watch

FnF as I've said before, it's a shame that you've only recently returned to posting in the Tank. And particularly because your stated positions on a wide range of issues happen to so closely mirror mine.

Fist and Faith wrote:I do not know how it is that you, and others here, cannot see the difference between racism against black people, and the problems within the black community.

Without a doubt these are two discrete, separate but real issues, with the sole common factor being that they both affect the black community. Well, sure, racism affects other ethnic minority communities too, but that's by the by.

And because these problems are different, so are the potential solutions to such going to be.

I am mindful that the issue of endemic societal racism - such as it is - will inevitably cause a feeling of resentful disenfranchisement within ethnic minority communities. However, I very much agree with what Zee said above about the black community needing to itself take responsibility for black on black violence.

And as I've said before, the self-labelling of the BLM movement is I think liable to be counterproductive, for all that its stated core objective is bang on the money justified.

But the bottom line? Black on black violence needs to be acknowledged and primarily addressed by the black community. And completely separately to that, systemic racism within society needs to be acknowledged where it exists (e.g. within certain law enforcement depts) and vigorously rooted out by everybody. The pressing need to address either issue absolutely does not depend on the other also being addressed first.

Fist and Faith wrote:As I've said, I think Trump is a buffoon (and, since the Republican Party chose him as their champion...), but the Democratic Party is insidious. Frankly, I don't think Trump has the sense to keep his mouth shut about anything he does wrong, while the leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to hide what they do wrong. So we're better off with Trump. It is sad beyond expression that the very definition of "the lesser of the evils" is the US Presidency.

Man, but I've written almost identical words myself several times over the last few months. I've not gone quite as far as saying that the US is "better off with Trump", but have continually done my best to highlight that with their current platform and strategy, Biden and the Dems are not going to be any better. As you say, it's really bleak to have to believe that the binary choice being laid before the US electorate tomorrow is seriously the best that America can come up with.

I also agree 100% with the point that, because Trump is indeed a kneejerking and egomaniacal buffoon, he is completely incapable of typical politician dissembling. Trump couldn't assume a mask if his life depended on it - he's just too stupid and just too convinced that he's a font of all wisdom. So with Trump, you know what you're getting - even if you detest it. And you'd have to be seriously brain-damaged to ever be fooled by him.

The same is not just true of Biden and the Dems. Those guys are all about dissembling - and as such as you quite correctly put it, they are indeed "insidious".

That's one of the few differences I see between 2020's Pubs and Dems. Trump is too moronic to ever be capable of maintaining a convincing lie. Whether that's enough in and of itself to make him on balance a less shitty choice for the White House, I'm not so sure. (Pretty much because I think both candidates are really appalling, so I'm not sure it makes a huge difference who wins).

Of course this "neither side is any good" opinion that you and I seem to share drives the zealots into a paroxysm of frothing rage. It seems that a "they're both really shit and pretty much as bad as each other" view on things is seen as even more heretical than picking a side. Never mind... to me it's the only realistic opinion possible.

Where I do disagree with you is on your prediction that Trump will get another term. Yes, I think it's going to be quite a lot closer than some are predicting, but I think Biden and the Dems will prevail.

And if they do, then my reaction will be "God help you all". And it will be exactly the same, in the more unlikely event of Trump getting a second term.

Far more concerning to me - admittedly from a distant position here in the UK - is the extreme and hyperpolarised divisions that have been pretty much forced upon US society. Neither Trump or Biden, Pubs or Dems have shown the slightest capability of (or indeed interest in) doing anything to resolve these. Sure there's been some lip service paid by one side or the other - but at the same time, both sides have pushed the black and white binary issue-framing for all they are worth. They've both actively promoted division for purely self-serving reasons.

I don't know how any reconciliation or rapprochement is even going to be attempted by whoever wins (presuming they can be bothered). And the first clear sign of this will be the loser of the election tomorrow - no matter who that may be - instantly claiming that the electoral process has been subverted, therefore their loss is not valid.

All of which makes you wonder if there's even the slightest future possibility of the USA becoming less Disunited?

Concerning times...

TheFallen wrote:I don't know how any reconciliation or rapprochement is even going to be attempted by whoever wins (presuming they can be bothered). And the first clear sign of this will be the loser of the election tomorrow - no matter who that may be - instantly claiming that the electoral process has been subverted, therefore their loss is not valid.

We are already far past the point of no return--there is not going to be any reconciliation by the winning side; they are going to claim that the side that lost is evil and deserved to lose because they are completely morally corrupt. But that really should go in the prognostication thread.

This whole "police are hunting down black people" narrative is demonstrably false, as some of us have shown already. As noted, a handful of videos do not indicate a wide trend so we need to quit pretending that they do.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:This whole "police are hunting down black people" narrative is demonstrably false, as some of us have shown already. As noted, a handful of videos do not indicate a wide trend so we need to quit pretending that they do.

I don't have the time to read every post, so forgive me for asking... Who is making that claim?

Fist and Faith wrote:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:This whole "police are hunting down black people" narrative is demonstrably false, as some of us have shown already. As noted, a handful of videos do not indicate a wide trend so we need to quit pretending that they do.

I don't have the time to read every post, so forgive me for asking... Who is making that claim?

BLM - it us their reason for existing. Well they exist to make money.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:This whole "police are hunting down black people" narrative is demonstrably false, as some of us have shown already. As noted, a handful of videos do not indicate a wide trend so we need to quit pretending that they do.

I don't have the time to read every post, so forgive me for asking... Who is making that claim?

The text from the blm's own website says so:

whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes

You know who actually intervenes to help protect black Americans from violence by vigilantes? The police. I say give them what they want, though--if black communities want no police, then they should vote and if the vote says "no police" then the police can just stay out of those communities. Everyone will be happy at that point, especially the criminals, who will then literally own those communities.

hashi - we would have to build walls. It would be like Escape from New York.

Oh. I thought you meant someone here.

Fist and Faith wrote:Oh. I thought you meant someone here.

Oh heavens no--if I meant someone here I would have quoted them.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
You know who actually intervenes to help protect black Americans from violence by vigilantes? The police.

Pretty much agreed, which makes it even more ironic that they also inflict unjustified violence on them.

That's the thing that both sides seem to struggle with...it's never all one thing or the other. Both things are true.

--A

Avatar!

How ludicrous of you to even dare to suggest that a purely binary view of reality is in any possible way incorrect or fallacious?

Anyway, aren't shades of grey banned in the US entirely these days?

I'm starting to suspect that may be the case TF. And lets be honest, maybe not just the US these days...rise of nationalism and all that.

--A

The rest of the world tends to lag about 5 to 10 years further back.

I'm hoping that over here at least, our legendary innate British reserve and sense of self-irony protects us form the worst excesses of... binarism?

Binaryism seems better to me. Banarianism is more fun, though.

sgt.null wrote:

ur-Nanothnir wrote:IDK, why don't you ask them rather than speak for them?

I'm not the one on here saying racism is so bad they can't succeed. I'm not on here saying police are hunting them down. If these things are true, why won't any of the liberals here post the stats?

Sorry, I missed this post somehow.

I haven't seen anyone here saying black people can't succeed. I haven't seen anyone here saying the police are hunting them down. You are implying that someone is saying these things in order to make the claim look foolish.

Read WF's posts. He considers the Watch to be supporting white nationalism.

What does that have to do with what Fist was responding to above?

sgt.null wrote:Read WF's posts. He considers the Watch to be supporting white nationalism.

If I read wf's posts, I will see him saying racism against black people is so bad that they cannot succeed and/or the police are hunting them down?

Fist and Faith wrote:

sgt.null wrote:Read WF's posts. He considers the Watch to be supporting white nationalism.

If I read wf's posts, I will see him saying racism against black people is so bad that they cannot succeed and/or the police are hunting them down?

Fist, I think Sarge was referring at least in part to wf's permanent signature quote, for whatever that's worth.

Separately, though pinning whatever wf's opinion is is often like trying to nail jello to a wall, do you agree with your interpretation of what he claims, as per above?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking. Whose claims?

sgt said he is not the one here making a couple of specific claims. Implying someone else here is. I'm wondering who that someone is.

Cross purposes... don't worry.