For Good Or Ill... [Spoilers Obviously]

[Avatar]

Well hell.

23 years after first being given Lord Foul's Bane, and I've just finished The Last Dark.

So, first things first, I pretty much liked it. Not quite what I expected, but sorta what I'd half hoped for. In other words, a happy ending.

Sure, it lacked the...fraughtness that I have usually come to associate with SRD. But since I did a whole re-read of the last chrons, and went straight from AATE to this one, some respite from being fraught was actually quite pleasant. In fact, by about the end of part one I paused to say to myself "my god...wouldn't it be nice if everything actually turned out alright?"

On the down side, well, there didn't seem to be that much emotional impact. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. Brinn's reappearance was great of course. Maybe best moment. Carriol Wildwood, and the creation of the new forestal too. (Didn't think so much of his name, or the Giant sailors, but that's by the by.)

Even things like Clyme's death and that of the swordmainnir didn't have the impact that say Liand's or Galt's did.

Was the ending a bit too perfect? Maybe. Not enough tension with Jeremiah? Maybe. Best book of the Last Chrons? Against All Things Ending without a doubt.

But I'm glad it worked out well.

Will dip into some of the other threads here tomorrow when it's all settled in. Overall? I feel neither empty nor full. Maybe it could have been better. It definitely could have been worse. Not a bad note for a great epic.

--A

[lurch]

Haa!, well congratulations Avatar. That slite feeling of ..ambiguity..is a good sensation. You've been moved,,you aren't sure to where , though. Yes. the unexpected does that. And,,leaves the reader with the need and want to revisit the book for a 2nd or more..read..which is good.

And yes, there were moments in TLD that I was thanfkul for the reprieve from hack and slash,,as you say, when things actually worked out. The goal of Linden was incrementally advanced on. Little payoffs kept the momentum going to the big payoff of the end.

Like a true classic, this one will grow on you: you will be back for more. It does improve with each reading,,like its predecessors .

The fun of this book just begins at the end of its first read.

[Avatar]

I will grant that each of the predecessors indeed improved with re-reading. Even FR. Well, the second part anyway, after Roger was revealed.

--A

[Frostheart Grueburn]

For some reason, this volume had the greatest emotional impact on me out of all the Last Chrons to the point that the village store might've become depleted of tissues, had it lasted longer. Clyme and Kindwind's deaths for instance affected me about 500% more than for instance that of Galt, and I kept speeding on towards the end to see if Team RimeFrost might survive past the last instances of Ragnarökkr. Still, after the 1001st skurj and cavewhatsist, the mass slaughter began to lose its impact. I'd opine that while SRD may fanboy Erikson to the point of giving the Giantesses Karsa-ish swords, he cannot handle such a multitude of characters the same way.

It was a bit bad perhaps for the sake of proper thrills that I guessed beforehand that a recreation would occur at the end and expected it all the while.

[lurch]

Frost..I can't argue about the Kleenex Tissue Quotient..as i began on the epilogue,,it hit me, that this was it..the last I'd be hearing from these characters,,and that finality, like most lately, opened the flood gates..TC taking out Joan I wouldn't wish on anybody, but the author saying..ahh schit..just typing this stuff dampens my cheek. How does this happen? How does a authors work get to its readers like that?..yea, I kno..its in the ears that hear..

[wayfriend]

Welcome to The End, Avatar. Glad you enjoyed it. (I wonder how much any leaking comments affected your read ... hope you managed to stay pure.)

All of Donaldson's works have taken multiple readings to truly appreciate. And to truly engage emergency tissue utilization. I think its easy to overlook how long we've digested the other Chronicles to reach our current level of appreciation of them.

Then again, you can only read it the first time once. It's good when that's good, too.

[Cord Hurn]

The first time I read Lord Foul's Bane, I kind of had to force myself to finish it, because I didn't like Covenant for his action of rape and because of his abrasive personality. The Land I found interesting, and I liked Foamfollower and Mhoram and the Ranyhyn, but it just seemed like a standard quest story with an unlikeable protagonist, and I just barely got through it, reading a bit at a time, for five weeks (I had already committed myself by buying all three First Chronicles, so that made me push on).

Once I read The Illearth War I was hooked, because Troy's presence challenged Covenant's Unbelief and Elena's presence forced Covenant to deal with the consequences of his actions. The whole saga of the Land suddenly became MUCH more interesting to me! LFB has become considerably more enjoyable to me upon re-reading, as I see the foreshadowing and savor all the small details about the Land and its inhabitants. I liked The Last Dark the first time, but from past experience with the other TC books I expect to like it even better upon re-reads.

(Oh, and congratulations to Avatar for getting it done! )

[Avatar]

I wonder how much any leaking comments affected your read...

Well, in the course of routine adminly stuff I did happen to have the fact that TC and Foul merged spoiled for me, but since I didn't know what the outcome would be, or how it would come about, I didn't consider it too terrible.

I have no doubt I will enjoy it again and probably more, but for sheer visceral impact I'm afraid I don't agree with Frosty.

Three moments across the whole Chrons really struck like a fist to the gut. The Wounded Land, the death of TC, and the fall of Kevin's Watch. I'd sorta hoped for one of those in here.

But as I said earlier, it was also quite nice that some devastating event didn't happen. It might have made for a more powerful ending, but I half felt that the characters deserved a break too.

I do think this is best read immediately after AATE to help foster that feeling. After AATE's descent, TLD is more like a slow rise of triumphs.

Best character: Stave.

--A

[Savor Dam]

There is no question that there is considerable overlap between the chronology of the final chapters of AATE and the first few of TLD. The fact that SRD split the story into multiple parallel time threads and did not keep them synchronized forces us to see events in the early part of TLD in light of what we already know about what has happened elsewhere.

Well, those of us who either remember what we read a few years ago or have more recently re-read it.

[lurch]

,,I agree SD..Splitting time lines seemed like a gamble , in any case It paid off big time..imho.. It gave us an insight to the characters thinking process,,an intimacy was fostered by knowing what the character did not know,,and in some cases,,what even the narrator apparently didn't know. What a hoot! But you could see how the thinking process was prejudiced by fears and despair,,or limited by ability to see all the choices, etc etc,,because you knew what was waiting for the character. That dimension gave a lot of insight. I think Donaldson should be commended for using that ploy.; a Classic and well played " subjectivity " of Time perspective of Surrealism...imho.

[SleeplessOne]

The first time I read Lord Foul's Bane, I kind of had to force myself to finish it, because I didn't like Covenant for his action of rape and because of his abrasive personality. The Land I found interesting, and I liked Foamfollower and Mhoram and the Ranyhyn, but it just seemed like a standard quest story with an unlikeable protagonist, and I just barely got through it, reading a bit at a time, for five weeks (I had already committed myself by buying all three First Chronicles, so that made me push on).

Once I read The Illearth War I was hooked, because Troy's presence challenged Covenant's Unbelief and Elena's presence forced Covenant to deal with the consequences of his actions. The whole saga of the Land suddenly became MUCH more interesting to me! LFB has become considerably more enjoyable to me upon re-reading, as I see the foreshadowing and savor all the small details about the Land and its inhabitants. I liked The Last Dark the first time, but from past experience with the other TC books I expect to like it even better upon re-reads.

(Oh, and congratulations to Avatar for getting it done! )

pretty much my exact experience with TCoTC Cord Hurn; struggled with LFB, put it down, picked it back up, got through it with some reservations - but TIW (my fave in the series by a fair margin) blew me away, and upon subsequent re-reads I grew to absolutely love LFB.

of the LC, I've only re-read Runes, which I enjoyed quite a bit more the 2nd time around; I've picked through bits and pieces of FR and AATE but haven't committed to a full re-read. Not sure if I will to be honest, despite my positive experiences with re-visiting SRD's books - just don't have as much time to invest in re-reading things these days, would rather plough on ahead with new reading experiences ... but I may still return to the LC at some point ..

[Zarathustra]

Well, in the course of routine adminly stuff I did happen to have the fact that TC and Foul merged spoiled for me, but since I didn't know what the outcome would be, or how it would come about, I didn't consider it too terrible.

I thought Donaldson spoiled this decades ago, before he even began writing the LC. Considering the meager scene we were given to illustrate this point, I'm left wondering why he bothered. It seems little more developed now than it did when it was an abstract point.

I was enthralled with Lord Foul's Bane upon my very first reading, at age 14. I don't believe I was able to get more out of it at 41 than 14, no matter how many multiple readings (I think about 5 now). The same things draw me in each time: Covenant's plight, and Donaldson's ability to make his crisis seem to matter. Like TC himself, I didn't care if it wasn't true, didn't care that he was a fictional character, it was more important that he affected me enough to care about him. That made him more real than 100 Frodos or 1000 Luke Skywalkers.

I respect the immense effort that went into the LC, and the intricacy of its "plot." But I don't care about this TC (much less Linden) as I do the one in the first 6 books. It has absolutely nothing to do with reading it enough times to find little nuggets of prose to make me forget the empty feeling inside. This Thomas Covenant doesn't matter. He diverts a Worm, gets laid, then embraces his Dark Side. He's a thematic prop, and this time it matters that he's a fiction, because that's exactly what he feels like.

,,I agree SD..Splitting time lines seemed like a gamble , in any case It paid off big time..imho.. It gave us an insight to the characters thinking process,,an intimacy was fostered by knowing what the character did not know,,and in some cases,,what even the narrator apparently didn't know. What a hoot! But you could see how the thinking process was prejudiced by fears and despair,,or limited by ability to see all the choices, etc etc,,because you knew what was waiting for the character. That dimension gave a lot of insight. I think Donaldson should be commended for using that ploy.; a Classic and well played " subjectivity " of Time perspective of Surrealism...imho.

How was this any different from Tolkien having multiple timelines that overlapped chronologically? Or the Gap? Or any number of other fantasy s.f. books? Are all of them surreal? I don't understand the emphasis this one example is getting, when we've seen so many writers (incl. SRD himself) do it to a much greater extent.

[TheFallen]

That's the thing. Well-defined, carefully crafted and above all believable characters with real depth cause the readership to get emotionally involved with them and to truly care.

However, if characters are blatantly used as not much more than symbolic archetypes to convey some metaphysical world view, then that whole empathy from the readership is liable to go out of the window.

Thus attention to the demands of narrative (credible characterisation, cohesiveness of plot and management of dramatic pacing) are IMO every single bit as crucial as whatever the more rarefied thematics may be. In fact I'd say more important, since it's the narrative that's the vehicle that conveys the message. That's the way that successful allegory (or symbolism, or metaphor) works - it's multi-levelled, with authorial care and attention needing to be paid to crafting every layer.

Pay too little heed to the narrative level and all the readership ends up with is a sermon thinly fronted by a puppet show. Which may be intellectually of interest, but which is never going to satisfy emotionally.

[dlbpharmd]

I thought Donaldson spoiled this decades ago, before he even began writing the LC.

Excellent point - imagine the emotional impact that scene would've had on each of us if we had never read that old interview.

[Zarathustra]

I just went back and reread a few of those on his site. One from 1999 or so stuck out to me for this:

At the same time I got the ideas for the second series. I realized it was not done, and I got a grand vision and it needs a third part. And I call it the Last Chronicles of Covenant and there would be no later sequels since the world would end.

I emphasized the last part for obvious reasons. Why does it have to be that "Last," again? The ending of the world in this case certainly doesn't preclude the story continuing. That's another spoiler I wish I'd never read. It set me up to take the "end" of the world as more final than it was, if it would make any further story-telling beyond the point impossible. But of course, there was an epilogue. Not only was there more story to tell, but another world as well.

I can't believe this was simply a mistake. I don't think he'd misspeak on something so crucial to the story. He has always claimed that the end was the whole point, and that he couldn't begin before knowing it beforehand. So whatever conception he had in 1999, he meant it at the time. And while a change this drastic seems inconceivable, I think we have to wonder if he did indeed change his mind for the end after saying this, because now it's not only inaccurate, but 180 degrees opposite of what he said then. The sole reason for the very title of the Chronicles was undermined by the epilogue.

[Edit: Or he was being purposely misleading, to build our suspense. I'm not sure which option is the least disappointing.]

[Vraith]

I just went back and reread a few of those on his site. One from 1999 or so stuck out to me for this:

At the same time I got the ideas for the second series. I realized it was not done, and I got a grand vision and it needs a third part. And I call it the Last Chronicles of Covenant and there would be no later sequels since the world would end.

I emphasized the last part for obvious reasons. Why does it have to be that "Last," again? The ending of the world in this case certainly doesn't preclude the story continuing. That's another spoiler I wish I'd never read. It set me up to take the "end" of the world as more final than it was, if it would make any further story-telling beyond the point impossible. But of course, there was an epilogue. Not only was there more story to tell, but another world as well.

I can't believe this was simply a mistake. I don't think he'd misspeak on something so crucial to the story. He has always claimed that the end was the whole point, and that he couldn't begin before knowing it beforehand. So whatever conception he had in 1999, he meant it at the time. And while a change this drastic seems inconceivable, I think we have to wonder if he did indeed change his mind for the end after saying this, because now it's not only inaccurate, 180 degrees opposite of what he said then. The sole reason for the very title of the Chronicles was undermined by the epilogue.

Heh...in this case, I can see/understand the whole problem and sympathize with it.
If I'd discovered the 2nd and the Last and the Watch and the GI in a different stage/time spoilerasmia--a fair chance I'd agree.
I kinda still do...there are stories that COULD be told from here on.
OTOH...they would not be the same KIND of stories.

[wayfriend]

There's really only one thing I want to say. I really hate giving away my secrets, "tipping my hand," telling people in advance what's going to happen. So even when I say here--or have said in other interviews over the years--something that sounds like a clear spoiler, you can be sure that I'm trying harder to obfuscate the truth than to reveal it. Aside from practical issues, like how caesures work, you should be careful not to take what I say at face value. I am (I admit this freely) actively trying to mess with your expectations.

Malicious, I know. But writers are like that. <grin>

(06/16/2005)

Now, I grant you, Donaldson was writing about a different spoiler here. He was referencing something he had said in an interview that appeared in W A Senior's book. Namely:

In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul.

Now that's a spoiler!

Still, I think we can assume that "the world would end" was intended to be ambiguous, and mess with your expectations.

Donaldson later went on to say:

However. Like all of the public statements I made about "The Last Chronicles" years (decades?) ago, that one was designed to both reveal and conceal my intentions. Saying that "Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul" barely hints at the complexity of what I have in mind.

(09/14/2006)

So I think we can assume that "the world would end" was also intended to barely hint at the complexity of what he has in mind.

... Or maybe it exactly revealed his intentions, and then he tried to cover his ass by making stuff up. That answer may satisfy the less charitable.

[Zarathustra]

However. Like all of the public statements I made about "The Last Chronicles" years (decades?) ago, that one was designed to both reveal and conceal my intentions. Saying that "Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul" barely hints at the complexity of what I have in mind.

(09/14/2006)

Another spoiler that was responsible for my disappointment. I'm starting to realize he "messed with my expectations" (as he admits) a lot more than I remembered. The quote about the end of the world and this quote about Foul pretty much covered my two biggest complaints, the two elements of the story I found to be the most lacking. The end wasn't the end, and the LF merger wasn't complex.

I was expecting it to be complex. Hell, I was expecting it at least to be longer. If that sentence "barely hints" at what he intended, I really wish what he intended had been on the page, because you could still use that sentence to sum up the climax of TC's personal story regarding LF and not miss any of the complexity that we got. He absorbed Foul, and then almost immediately moved on to recreating the world.

So I think we can assume that "the world would end" was also intended to barely hint at the complexity of what he has in mind.

Well, the world did end. It wasn't all that complex. The Worm destroyed the Arch, just as we were always told it would. The only "complexity" is that this "end" was immediately undermined in a way that makes the issue of "Last" seem like nothing more than yet another attempt to mess with our expectations.

Anyway, if I hadn't read those quotes years ago, I probably would have enjoyed the LC a bit more. I think he really did himself a disservice by lying to his most ardent fans--or in his words, " obfuscating the truth." I hope his deception made him some money.

See? I can be charitable.

[Avatar]

Yeah, I never read any of those old interviews or GI things.

Anyway, Like Z, I never had any problem with LFB. Never really understood it that people did. *shrug*

--A

[wayfriend]

In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul.

Now that's a spoiler!

I wanted to add some data to this. A fuller version of that passage is:

WAS: All right. Last Chronicles question. You may not want to answer this but we've been talking about this in general terms for - what is it - five years we've been meeting. In a hundred words or less, if you ever write the Third Chronicles, what are they going to be? You always know the stories before you write them. In essence, Covenant is dead. Where are you going to go now?

SRD: Ok. In a hundred words or less. In the First Chronicles, Thomas Covenant faces Lord Foul and defeats him. In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant surrenders to Lord Foul. In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul. Following the psychological paradigm through, what happens at the point that you become your own other self is that you become whole, and the universe is made new.

WAS: ok.

SRD: Yeah. So, now I don't need to write it.

So "become whole" and "the universe has been made new" has been the intention since the onset. As "the world would end" was also the intention.

And that, too, was revealed a long time ago.