Kevin's Watch

I always thought that the Ranyhyn judged Verement wrongly.

If he was Ranyhyn bourne he would have accompanied his wife on the mission to The Grieve. Perhaps, and I say perhaps, together they would have survived and returned to Revelstone.

I know the Ranyhyn refusal of Verement was center fugal to his character and the loss of his wife was the catalyst to his death.

But!

Imagine them on the walls of Revelstone....

Imagine not having Verement bereft-and-therefore-unrestrained at Doom's Retreat. Who then spins the Forbidding across the Retreat and faces Fleshharrower, allowing the Warward to escape?

Without that triumph that allowed Troy to get his army to safety and eventually trap the warped Giant and his army in Garroting Deep, there would have been effectively no siege of Revelstone for Shetra and Verement to participate in. They would have been at the other end of the Land when Fleshharrower arrived at Revelstone...with virtually no defenders left to oppose him.

Not a good ending.

I don't think that the Ranyhyn judged Verement as "unworthy" of being borne. There can be other reasons for not being chosen.

In the time of Lord Prothall, forty years earlier, we have:

In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:"Few are chosen. Tamarantha is the only living Lord to be blessed with a Ranyhyn mount - Hynaril bears her proudly - though neither Prothall nor Mhoram have yet made the trial."

Were all the Lords unworthy? Or did the Ranyhyn have other reasons?

In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:"They choose in their own way, and even the Ramen cannot explain them. ... Brother Verement is a worthy man."

If the Ranyhyn chose not to serve Verement, their reasons can't be explained. And so we cannot assume we know the reason for their choice was worth. If Verement was unworthy, so to were Trevor, and Loerya, and Amatin, and Osondrea, and Variol,

I wonder if the Ranyhyn chose Lords based on their capacity for desecration. At the end Verement channeled immense energy because of his hate. It may have been that during the siege he could have been prone (like Trell) to despair.

Still, with Shetra by his side they could also have been a formidable team. I really like the way SRD managed to create such interesting, memorable characters in such a concentrated space. We spend only a short time with either Shetra or Verement yet they leave such a lasting impression.

u.

If Verenent accompanied his wife to The Grieve, Hyrim would have been with Mhoram.

Perhaps his knowledge of lore would have sufficed.

I just like the idea of husband/wife fighting together.

ussusimiel wrote:I wonder if the Ranyhyn chose Lords based on their capacity for desecration. At the end Verement channeled immense energy because of his hate.
u.

Hate? Is that really what you think he was feeling then? That's not what I recall thinking then.

But perhaps they chose knowing that he'd not become what he needed to be if they HAD chosen him.

And let's not forget: No one, no matter their nature or power, not even the Rany, see the future perfectly...

In fact, one might distinguish the good from the evil in the Chrons by separating those who try to create opportunities/hope and those who try to limit choice/create outcomes. [maybe...I haven't tried to do so].

Eldritch, I see your point more clearly now. Yes, that is a powerful concept.

In lieu of seeing Shetra and Verement fighting together in Land service, consider the scene at the Woodhelven in LFB where Mhoram's parents, Variol and Tamarantha, are found to have passed during the battle. This is an underappreciated bit of early genius by SRD.

ussusimiel wrote:I wonder if the Ranyhyn chose Lords based on their capacity for desecration. At the end Verement channeled immense energy because of his hate. It may have been that during the siege he could have been prone (like Trell) to despair.

Still, with Shetra by his side they could also have been a formidable team. I really like the way SRD managed to create such interesting, memorable characters in such a concentrated space. We spend only a short time with either Shetra or Verement yet they leave such a lasting impression.

u.

for sure, and Hyrim son of Hoole doesn't get a whole lot more to do or say but he is just as vivid, one of my favourite side-characters in the chrons.

Verement's vehemence at Doom's Retreat makes for some outrageously kick-ass lines - I always loved the stirring :

I match you hate for hate, moksha Raver!

(Verement had undoubtedly set aside his Vow at this point @Vraith!)

.. unfortunately it all ended moments later with a swift kick to sever the spine

SleeplessOne wrote:for sure, and Hyrim son of Hoole doesn't get a whole lot more to do or say but he is just as vivid, one of my favourite side-characters in the chrons.

If roly-poly Hyrim is one of your favourite characters in the Chronicles, It sounds like you need to pick yourself up a copy of Gilden-Fire (if you don't have one), SleeplessOne.

Gilden-Fire contains the excised chapters from The Illearth War that describe Hyrim's, Shetra's and the Bloodguard's mission to Seareach in some detail. Lord Hyrim has quite a bit more to say and do within it.

It's available (or at least, was available) as a separate novella and it also tends to be included in SRD short story collections such as Daughter Of Regals and Other Tales.

TheFallen wrote:

SleeplessOne wrote:for sure, and Hyrim son of Hoole doesn't get a whole lot more to do or say but he is just as vivid, one of my favourite side-characters in the chrons.

If roly-poly Hyrim is one of your favourite characters in the Chronicles, It sounds like you need to pick yourself up a copy of Gilden-Fire (if you don't have one), SleeplessOne.

Gilden-Fire contains the excised chapters from The Illearth War that describe Hyrim's, Shetra's and the Bloodguard's mission to Seareach in some detail. Lord Hyrim has quite a bit more to say and do within it.

It's available (or at least, was available) as a separate novella and it also tends to be included in SRD short story collections such as Daughter Of Regals and Other Tales.

thanks Fallen, I picked up a very good condition hardcover a couple of years ago, this kinda cover :



I had a grand re-read of the 1st and 2nd chronicles about 8 years ago, hadn't read the books since I was a kid so it was utterly revelatory - I borrowed the first couple of books from the library but then was happy to discover a whole lot of cheap 2nd hand TCoTC books; my fave score was a three-in-one hardcover of the entire 1C, in pretty good nick ..

but yeah, Gilden Fire was ok, it added further insights into the ways of the haruchai and we got to spend a little more time with Hyrim and Shetra.

the drawings are pretty lamentable btw!

SleeplessOne wrote:

I match you hate for hate, moksha Raver!

(Verement had undoubtedly set aside his Vow at this point @Vraith!)

I agree completely that he was beyond the Oath. And a good thing, too! [[and the thing the Rany could well have seen as necessary,,,if they weren't merely cloudy-sighted or mistaken]].
But in my world/interpretation, there is a difference between hate and desecration...though hate can definitely inspire it.
It isn't the presence of hate that determines...the absence of it is part of the reason the Oath impeded power.
It is what has dominion/rules your soul. Verement hates the Raver...but I don't think hate rules him.

Vraith wrote:

SleeplessOne wrote:

I match you hate for hate, moksha Raver!

(Verement had undoubtedly set aside his Vow at this point @Vraith!)

I agree completely that he was beyond the Oath. And a good thing, too! [[and the thing the Rany could well have seen as necessary,,,if they weren't merely cloudy-sighted or mistaken]].
But in my world/interpretation, there is a difference between hate and desecration...though hate can definitely inspire it.
It isn't the presence of hate that determines...the absence of it is part of the reason the Oath impeded power.
It is what has dominion/rules your soul. Verement hates the Raver...but I don't think hate rules him.

heh; I woke up this morning thinking 'it was the Oath of Peace, not a Vow!"

agree that hate and the embracing of despite/desecration are two different things, although the path of the former could definitely lead to the latter.

I'm not sure that the absence of hate specifically hampered the Lords reaching their full potential with regards to their Oath, but they were definitely suppressing their passions to their own detriment.

I've always regarded 'The Oath' as a form of self control, no one can banish hatred from their life.

Verement was filled with self doubt and self loathing. The loss of Shetra, on a quest that Verement was unable to accompany her, was the final straw. (See what I did there?). Broken and bereft, and, indeed, unrestrained, his stand at Dooms Retreat was his final chance to prove himself to the two loves of his life.

Regarding 'The Oath' during TIL, didn't Mhoram disregard it when he led the Warward into Garroting Deep?

'I do not ask a boon for which I can make no return, Forestal, I offer you a Raver.'

Eldritch wrote:Regarding 'The Oath' during TIL, didn't Mhoram disregard it when he led the Warward into Garroting Deep?

I'd say no, it wasn't a case of Mhoram using his Earthpower,impassioned and unchecked, to wreak desecration upon the Land or its defenders.

And concerning the Lords Shetra and Verement, I agree that they both leave a lasting impression upon the reader.

'Gallows Howe': place of execution in Garroting Deep.

HT had lost! His only hope was Mhoram!

Mhoram, bargained, safe passage by offering the life of the giant-raver moksha.

Eldritch wrote:Regarding 'The Oath' during TIL, didn't Mhoram disregard it when he led the Warward into Garroting Deep?

The Oath does not say "kill not", it says "kill not where maiming is enough". So Mhoram arranging the demise of a Raver isn't automatically an oath-breaker. It depends on the circumstances - on whether it was necessary. It sure looked like it was necessary in that instance.

And then there's the whole issue with the Raver vs the Giant that the Raver is possessing. Killing a possessed Giant can be viewed as a mercy and not a needless death.

Another important issue to think about here, that undoubtedly involves issues of SRD's authorial intent, is that Lords Amatin, Trevor and Lloerya (as well as Mhoram himself) all had to dig deep and find reserves within themselves during the course of the siege of Revelstone, and their ability to do so was both crucial to the defence at particular points in the siege, and something that added to the story.