Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:29 pm**

Okay I'm sure this has been discussed before, but my attempt at thread necromancy failed utterly.

As we all know, the three ravers are called moksha Jehannum, turiya Herem and samadhi Sheol respectively. As I'm sure we all also know, the second half of each name is entirely in keeping with such malign and evil spirits... Jehannum is directly related to the Arabic "jahannum", itself springing from the Hebrew word "gehenna" and describes the Islamic conception of Hell. Herem could have several etymological roots, but the most likely is again the Arabic word "haram", originating from the Hebraic "herem". In Islam, "haram" is a term reserved to describe the most morally repugnant and loathsome of sins, a transgression so heinous that it warrants excommunication, expulsion or exile. The roots of Sheol are simpler; it's straight from the Hebrew and refers to the underworld or abode of the dead, a place of darkness entirely cut off from God. So this all makes entire and condign sense - very appropriate names..

So, how about those first names of Sanskrit/Hindu origin? From what I can gather, each is a state of consciousness that it is considered valuable attaining in Hinduism. moksha seems to loosely mean an absence of suffering and a release from bondage, turiya seems to describe the experience of pure consciousness and samadhi denotes a state of complete control over the functions and distractions of consciousness. None of these states are viewed in the least as "bad" or "nedesirable"...

So, a) given that SRD invariably chooses his character names with care - with the possible exception of Soranal the Raman, as memorably pointed out in Fantasy Bedtime Hour - and b) given that SRD has personal experience of the Indian subcontinent, what are the views as to why he obviously and equally carefully chose these particular names for three of the most loathsome and feared entities in the Chronicles?

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:04 pm**

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:Yes, the Hindi (or, more properly, Sanskrit) names for the Ravers are deliberate. Moksha, turiya, and samadhi refer to various states of enlightenment. This reflects how the Ravers think of themselves. Their other names reflect how other people think of them.

(04/14/2004)

Yes, I chose "moksha, turiya, and samadhi" deliberately, knowing what those words referred to in Sanskrit (broadly translated, they are all states of enlightenment). Those names reflect how the Ravers think of themselves. Their other names (Herem, Sheol, and Jehannum) are also real words, which reflect how other people think of the Ravers.

(10/19/2005)

<sigh> My current theme seems to be fallibility. When I came up with the names moksha, turiya, and samadhi for the Ravers, I knew exactly what they meant. But that was 30+ years ago. Now I only remember that the words are Sanskrit, and that they refer to states or forms of enlightenment.

(01/22/2006)

[etc. etc.]

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:13 pm**

wayfriend, thanks. When it comes to the G.I. - which by now I suspect you have memorised verbatim - you truly are a proactive reference tome and font of all wisdom.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:03 pm**

It does has a search option.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:31 pm**

Dont say anything nice about me, TheFallen. It summons demons who need to restore the cosmic balance.

Anyway, it is just data on a part of your topic. I thought it would help. Donaldson never said, AFAIK, what the meanings of Herem, Sheol, and Jehannum are. But they sound Hebrew or Parsi to me.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:06 pm**

IIRC, Sheol is Hebrew for 'hell.' Jehannum is similar to the Hebrew word 'gehenna,' which is another word for 'hell.'

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:45 pm**

dlbpharmd wrote:IIRC, Sheol is Hebrew for 'hell.' Jehannum is similar to the Hebrew word 'gehenna,' which is another word for 'hell.'

Kinda.
We'll put it this way...though one could translate them linguistically and through time/evolution [perhaps a ceasura] so they become, for some people...who are mostly misusing...synonyms for hell, in neither case are they actually what a Christian means when they say hell: A place with evil incarnate supervising the utter torment of "bad" peoples souls for ever and ever and ever.

I'm pretty sure...not positive, but pretty sure...that the vast majority of those who follow Judaism do not now and never did believe in "Hell" in that way.

And I'm pretty sure SRD wouldn't use the conflated "hell" meaning. He'd be precise. So mean something more like, for "Sheol" the trap/burial/place. [held in an endless dark] For "Gehenna" it would probably involve the torment/torture part. [heh..but without the end result, which is restoration to purity even in the worst interpretations of Gehenna]

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:35 am**

wayfriend wrote:Dont say anything nice about me, TheFallen. It summons demons who need to restore the cosmic balance.

Says the guy who calls other Watcher members demons.

If anyone was the object of my teasing, it was TF, and he seemed to take it just fine. My only point was that it's easy to find relevant info on the GI, if any Watcher is curious. I thought it might be a helpful tip, since TF didn't know (or was being facetious in his praise?). People here should know that they, too, can access info there fairly easily.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:16 am**

okay...yet still, its an odd thought,,thats how they see themselves mixed with..how others see them....So, these Ravers are a vain lot..to say the least. They as servants of despair,,turn despair into a vanity..? they effort to make despair a good thing....

So, the original question, on, what does SRD have against Hinduism..I can't speak for the author yet I notice. as I've mentioned elsewhere,,.The Chrons are about not accepting Fate,,taking Responsibility for ones plight and going forward into the future not in despair by what you started off as..Of course Job pops into mind but rather than from a God point of view, the story is orientated in the actual wheeling and dealing with the nasties pov. ..or maybe a complete inside out Faustian tale,,where instead of searching for that which can't be made better( perfection),,its a tale of a search for that which can't be any worse..leprosy..What does this have to do with Hinduism,,? Well, the reincarnate Wheel is all about..predestination..thus the caste system of society..So..there is no searching because there is no " movement". Whatever you are born as, is what you are..No improvement up, down nor sideways . There are lessons to be learned at whatever station you are born into and there will be no all aboard the train to a better life, at least while you are alive in this life. So there is a conflict between the underlying beginnings of TCoTC ,,and the society that Hinduism has spawned..I could say...the Hindu religion puts a vanity,,a " good" spin on being born to a schitt eater. The caste system makes it acceptable, as if there are no other choices, to be born in the most despairing circumstances. Over coming lifes obstacles is not the idea. Accepting them and learning lessons from being that existence is what gets you promoted to the next level , when you are reincarnated. ...So..lack of ability,,lack of choices,,lack of responsibility ,,your fate is all tied to the Gods and their Wheel of Fortune Or Not,,seems in conflict with SRD's basic theme of Individual Identity and Responsibility to it.

Sure the Ravers think highly of themselves... Only as High Priests do they Control....imho..

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:40 am**

wayfriend wrote:Dont say anything nice about me, TheFallen. It summons demons who need to restore the cosmic balance.

Aaah, WF - I'm always one to lavish praise whenever anyone says anything pertinent or condign. This is not the Tank, hence on this specific occasion, your answer merits apes ivory and peacocks from me. Don't go expecting a trend or anything now, will you?

wayfriend wrote:Donaldson never said, AFAIK, what the meanings of Herem, Sheol, and Jehannum are. But they sound Hebrew or Parsi to me.

dlbpharmd wrote:IIRC, Sheol is Hebrew for 'hell.' Jehannum is similar to the Hebrew word 'gehenna,' which is another word for 'hell.'

Vraith wrote: ...in neither case are they actually what a Christian means when they say hell: A place with evil incarnate supervising the utter torment of "bad" peoples souls for ever and ever and ever.

I'm pretty sure...not positive, but pretty sure...that the vast majority of those who follow Judaism do not now and never did believe in "Hell" in that way.

And I'm pretty sure SRD wouldn't use the conflated "hell" meaning. He'd be precise. So mean something more like, for "Sheol" the trap/burial/place. [held in an endless dark] For "Gehenna" it would probably involve the torment/torture part. [heh..but without the end result, which is restoration to purity even in the worst interpretations of Gehenna]

Sheesh... you guys never fully read the OP, do ya?

TF only a few posts above and in the damn OP fercrissakes wrote:Jehannum is directly related to the Arabic "jahannum", itself springing from the Hebrew word "gehenna" and describes the Islamic conception of Hell. Herem could have several etymological roots, but the most likely is again the Arabic word "haram", originating from the Hebraic "herem". In Islam, "haram" is a term reserved to describe the most morally repugnant and loathsome of sins, a transgression so heinous that it warrants excommunication, expulsion or exile. The roots of Sheol are simpler; it's straight from the Hebrew and refers to the underworld or abode of the dead, a place of darkness entirely cut off from God.

All three terms imply an eternal estrangement from the presence, forgiveness and grace of God.

Lurch, I find myself of very like mind when it comes to a potential implicit rejection of the fatalism inherent in Hinduism in SRD's choices of names for the terrible trio. The issue of taking responsibility, continually striving and never giving up hope - or into despair - no matter how bleak all possible outcomes look, is indeed central to the Chrons.

All three major protagonists do exactly that - TC is the very definition of a refusal to give up - even if his final resolution lies in accepting but controlling the unconquerable. Linden is (eventually...

) inspired to face down and resolve her own paralysing self-doubt and self-reproach and Jerry of course frees himself from the shackles of his mental graves.

As I quoted elsewhere, it strikes me more and more that one of the key messages within the Chrons is encapsulated neatly in the Serenity Prayer:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, (TC)
Courage to change the things I can change, (Linden, Jerry)
And wisdom to know the difference."

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:57 pm**

TheFallen wrote:So, a) given that SRD invariably chooses his character names with care -

Well, I am not so sure what "care" means here. Donaldson seems to regret a lot of his early name choices. On the other hand, I do think he intended the discrepancy between the Raver's self-chosen names and the names they acquired by reputation.

I wonder if the "hell" referred to here, by whatever definition, refers to the torment of those the Ravers possess.

If so, then perhaps "enlightenment" refers to the notion that those possessed are perfected in the Raver's opinion.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:20 pm**

wayfriend wrote: I wonder if the "hell" referred to here, by whatever definition, refers to the torment of those the Ravers possess.

If so, then perhaps "enlightenment" refers to the notion that those possessed are perfected in the Raver's opinion.

The first was what I was getting at.

The second...that's a cool implication out of where I started, a step I didn't take, and worth pondering.

TF: I was responding to the thing I quoted, then skipping back as far as possible. [linguistically] The Islamic may point the way...but it is too new. The older and more specific made sense to me. [herem is also a thing itself, older and more specific and with some different implications compared to "haram"]
So it wasn't a matter of not reading.
It's just differences I thought might matter..."hell" is too loose, IMO. Like saying Dante, the "Inferno" part is "hell." It IS...but there is more to it.

Kevin's Watch

Ravers - what has SRD got against Hinduism?

Ravers - what has SRD got against Hinduism?

Re: Ravers - what has SRD got against Hinduism?

Re: Ravers - what has SRD got against Hinduism?