Kevin's Watch

.....in their rough treatment of the 'quest' in Elemesnedene [and particularly at the Elohimfest] in the light of the final denoument of The Second Chrons. We hear much about their wurd and how they were acting within the constraints of it. [What was their wurd in relation to the quest for the One Tree]. Findail is 'Appointed' to bear the consequenses of that involvement [presumably by being transformed into the Elohim part of the Staff of Law] but what were his alternatives. [In facing Vain on the deck of Starfares Gem after he has been unmasked Findail points at Vain's chest as Vain stands there staring at him. "To you, I say No!Whatever you may do or think to do that I will not suffer. I am Appointed to this task, but in the name of no duty will I bear that doom". Vain grins like a ghoul.] What is he refering to here.

To list the 'crimes' of the Elohim in Elemesnedene; TC was abused by Chime, insulted as not being important and finally bereft of his mind. Honinnscrave was denied his dearest wish to see his brothers suffering eased. Pithwife and the First were subjected to the insulting display of Pitchwife's deformity being thrust in their faces and Vain was imprisoned and then very nearly rent into dissolution as he attempted to escape.

What was the wurd of the Elohim that demanded all of this and were their actions vindicated by the end of the second Chrons - or were they just wrong, up themselves and a bunch of assholes from start to finish? Did the Sunsage and Ring-weilder have to be one or not?

[Harder to answer in this place so perhaps a new post over in TLD is needed, How do we view this, our main encounter with the Elohim in the earlier works, in the light of what we see of them in the Last Chrons, and in view of how it all finishes up?]

peter, that's a really, really hard question. The motivations of the Elohim are, to this day, inscrutible. But I think the best answer is 'partly'. They have as many shades of grey as any other protagonist or character Donaldson may write about. In fact, the only sure thing is that you can't view them as "absolute good" or "absolute bad" - or "absolute selfishness" or "absolute magnanimity", either.

The new Staff of Law wasn't their choice of options. But they could have gone out of their way to prevent it, and did not.

Did the silence they imposed on Covenant have any benefit? Possibly. Did it cause any harm? Assuredly.

Did the secrecy of their intentions confuse everyone? Absolutely. And did this secrecy produce any useful result? Hmm...

I'm beginning to realise Wayfriend, that [love it as I assuredly do], that I'm not really getting the Second Chrons at all. There are questions arising that in my 'laziness' as a reader I have never previously adressed at all.

The problems seem to me to start with Caer Caverals actions when meeting TC in Andelain. You can almost take the entire 2nd Chrons from the moment where instead of just telling TC how to get to the One Tree, he 'embeded' the knowledge in his unconcious in a manner that forced it to be 'unlocked', as a consequence of this act. Was this his intent and if so - why? If [for example] he could forsee the meeting with the Elohim [in which nothing that matereally effects the final outcome seems to ocur] could he not also forsee the meeting with the Giants in the Sarangrave. Why not give TC the info he needs in a manner that could be directly imparted to them. Did he expect Linden to be doing the 'opening' at the appropriate time rather than the Elohim.

And on this note - why would a 'melding' of TC with Linden and with TC's absolute consent which he assuredly would have given, be posession? Lindens argument against acessing the One Tree map was so full of holes TC could have dismantled it in a second.

And the questions go on; The Elohim say that Vain is antithetical to 'their purpose' and try to dimantle him - but at the same time provide Findail as the Appointed to be the 'other half' of the Staff of Law. What function would Findail have served had the Elohim been sucesfull in destroying Vain. What form then, would his 'appointment ' have taken? What again wa the Elohim's 'purpose' - we never know.

OK - if Caer Caveral had not done this hiding then perhaps Gibbon would have been forewarned of TC's intent [and also there would have been no story], but if his foresight was so acute did he not see the consequenses of his act - and if he did, but did it anyway why were those consequenses so necessary? I don't get what the Elohim episode adds to the eventual outcome other than to hinder the quests progress, and this implies that the Elohim were not smart at all; in fact [like the Haruchai] they got just about everything wrong they could!

[Wayfriend - this is not all here for you to answer, honestly! I'm just trying to pull my perplexities into some kind of shape from which I can asses them. To answer them in depth would probably require a book as long as TOT itself!]

Donaldson does a pretty good job explaining a lot of this in the GI, but the posts are scattered and take some time to find. I remember one in particular that describe the various plotting of the characters (like LF, Elohim and Caer Caveral) as "planting seeds." They didn't know exactly what would happen, but gave our heroes the tools they needed to achieve a favorable end in various ways--which allows Linden and Covenant their freedom.

Frankly, I think it's bullshit. I think the Second Chronicles is where Donaldson began structuring narrative by the "ignorance as plot device" trick, where everything was chosen to mislead us, the readers, more than Covenant. It was designed for a series of narrative surprises that would pack a punch.

The problems seem to me to start with Caer Caverals actions when meeting TC in Andelain. You can almost take the entire 2nd Chrons from the moment where instead of just telling TC how to get to the One Tree, he 'embeded' the knowledge in his unconcious in a manner that forced it to be 'unlocked', as a consequence of this act. Was this his intent and if so - why?

You mentioned one possibility about keeping Gibbon in the dark, but this doesn't seem plausible, since LF is part of TC and therefore would know what's in his mind, and then relay that info to the Ravers. Also, a Raver follows TC onto the giantship after his goal becomes clear, and continue to try thwarting him. So what did the secrecy gain? Nothing I can tell. After all, Caer Caveral already told Covenant that his purpose will take him outside the Land. Why not also tell him what that purpose is? I think the only benefit of that secret was the ability for Donaldson to have a cool scene at Revelstone where TC has his "epiphany" about creating a new Staff. An "aha" moment.

If [for example] he could forsee the meeting with the Elohim [in which nothing that matereally effects the final outcome seems to ocur]

Nothing that materially affects the final outcome? What about Findail? The new staff would have been impossible without him.

And on this note - why would a 'melding' of TC with Linden and with TC's absolute consent which he assuredly would have given, be posession? Lindens argument against acessing the One Tree map was so full of holes TC could have dismantled it in a second.

I agree. I think this has more to do with Linden's character development and facing that she's evil. She's in denial, and doesn't want to give justification for the truth she's denying. So she's overcompensating just a bit ... being dogmatic about the whole possession thing.

And the questions go on; The Elohim say that Vain is antithetical to 'their purpose' and try to dimantle him - but at the same time provide Findail as the Appointed to be the 'other half' of the Staff of Law.

I think Findail was appointed because the Ringwielder and Sunsage weren't the same person, and Covenant wouldn't give up the ring. It was a contingency plan. So I suppose Vain was antithetical because they didn't really approve of the journey to make a new Staff because it could wake the Worm? I guess this implies they thought Linden should be able to handle the Sunbane without the Staff, if she had the ring? I don't know. Linden *did* need the Staff, even after acquiring the ring. But maybe healthsense + ring could have been enough?

This used to make sense to me. I've forgotten now how SRD explained it.

What function would Findail have served had the Elohim been sucesfull in destroying Vain. What form then, would his 'appointment ' have taken? What again wa the Elohim's 'purpose' - we never know.

I don't think Findail would have been appointed at all if Linden had the ring. So their purpose was to force Linden into a position where she would take the ring from Covenant. I think.

Maybe it's time to refresh myself with the GI.

I'm already seeing some justification for the points I made above in the GI:

Question: 1. If the 2nd Chrons had been titled: "We are the Elohim, hear us ROAR - How we would have handled the Sunbane (instead of having to deal with those pesky White Gold Wielders..." I mean, what was their plan? As you can probably tell, those type of people REALLY annoy me - you know the all-powerful, all-knowing 2nd-guessers.

Answer: 1. In what sense did the Elohim *need* a plan? Do you mean, what would the Elohim have done if white gold and its wielder(s) never existed? Nothing, probably--since the Elohim themselves would never have existed, since I would not have written the story. In other words, you have to take white gold wielders as a given when you think about the Elohim. You have to take the whole created (and implied) world in which the Elohim exist as given. So for them, plan A was that Linden has the ring, therefore doesn't need a Staff of Law; she beats the shit out of Lord Foul, and no one else has to worry about it. Plan B was Findail. Who was so reluctant because from the perspective of the Elohim his role should not have been necessary at all.



(08/01/2004)

2) Personally, I don't consider anything in "The One Tree" to be "an ironic waste of time"--and I certainly don't see anything "wrong" with the directions my characters took in that book. One reviewer described the ending of "The One Tree" as "a subtle victory disguised as defeat," and I agree. For example, without Findail, without Linden's possession of Covenant in Bhrathairealm, and without Vain's "damage" at the Isle of the One Tree, Covenant's victory over Lord Foul, and Linden's creation of the new Staff of Law, would never have been possible.

(08/01/2004)

However, it's important to understand Findail is a reaction to Vain, Covenant, and Linden: Vain was not created in response to, or in concert with, the Elohim (although he may well have been created, in part, as an attempt to manipulate the Elohim).

(11/12/2004)

As you obviously realize, you've asked quite a number of very complex questions: too many, and too complex, for me to try to answer them all at once. I've already discussed elsewhere what happened to Vain at the One Tree. And I suspect that you could deduce the answers to some of your other questions. So for now I'm only going to address this: "I will NEVER buy the notion that the truth is dangerous! Ignorance is dangerous!"

Now, I don't want to get side-tracked into a discussion of the difference between "truth" and "knowledge." But I would argue that what the Dead withhold from Covenant in Andelain is not truth, but rather knowledge. And I have had long and intimate experience with how dangerous premature knowledge can be. (Again, in order to avoid being side-tracked, I won't mention *parenting*; but any parent can tell you that it's easy to hurt children by teaching them things they aren't ready to learn.) I'll stick to one example: the study of the martial arts.

At their core, the martials arts (as knowledge) are all about killing and maiming. Yet every responsible teacher of the martial arts knows that it would be destructive and even immoral to teach "killing and maiming" without *first* teaching the control AND the maturity to make ethical choices about when and how to *use* "killing and maiming." EsPEcially since many students of the martial arts are children who aren't developmentally qualified to make ethical choices. Therefore every responsible teacher of the martial arts begins by teaching a stylized and restricted version of the real arts. Will we teach you how to kick your attacker effectively in the stomach? Yes, we will: an effective kick to the stomach can save your life, and is *very* unlikely to kill or maim your attacker. But will we teach you how to kick in a way that will shatter your attacker's kneecap? No, we will not: not until the student has demonstrated the control necessary to practice the technique safely AND the maturity necessary to use the technique appropriately.

My point is that knowledge is dangerous unless it has been *earned.* Which is exactly why Kevin went to all the trouble of concealing his lore in caches which were intended to be discovered in a specific sequence. Learning x prepares you to learn y safely. Learning y prepares you to learn z safely. In responsible martial arts schools, the earning of a black belt is considered a prerequisite to learning the *actual* martial art. A student without a black belt simply isn't *trusted* enough to be taught "killing and maiming."

So think about it. What do you suppose the consequences would be if Covenant's Dead had simply *explained* everything to him? Well, let's see. Who in his right mind would visit the Elohim under those conditions? Who in his right mind would risk rousing the Worm? And why would the Elohim *ever* decide to Appoint Findail if Covenant and Linden already knew all of the answers? ("Pardon me. We don't actually need anything from you. We just want to trick you into Appointing Findail so we can go risk destroying the world for the sole purpose of bringing Vain into contact with the right kind of power.")

It seems to me that the "schema" of "The One Tree" is considerably more solid than you think it is. (Keeping in mind that this is Just My Opinion, and you have every right to your own opinion.)


(01/26/2005)

Question: is there a simpler way of describing what each party (good and evil) had planned, or was it really, as it seems, a series of thin hopes that each group hoped TC would follow to victory or doom? Was this all planned this way by The Dead?

Answer: Interestingly, the same observation/complaint/criticism can be levelled at �Mordant�s Need� and the GAP books: it�s all insanely meticulous; no hero or bad guy regardless of intelligence could possibly predict, much less plan, the actions of other people that far ahead (chaos theory alone forbids it). But my own view of the situation is rather different. As far as I�m concerned, there�s really only one question that matters: does the author violate the integrity, the dignity, the independent reality, of his characters in order to contrive his elaborate plots? If he does, well, then the sorts of questions you raise really don�t apply, since we�re talking about *contrivance* rather than *character* and therefore predicting and planning are dead easy. Or at any rate as dead easy as playing chess. But if the author does *not* violate the integrity/dignity/independence of his characters, and the plots *still* seem insanely, impossibly meticulous--ah, then the problem must lie elsewhere. Not in the apparent meticulousness of the plots, but in how those plots are visualized by the reader.

It seems to me that some of the difficulty for the reader arises from the fact that the reader is looking back on the action, while everyone within the story is looking forward. (After all, these plots don�t seem insanely meticulous until you think about them afterward: the perspective of retrospect seems to change their nature.) One example--and only one, because I don�t want to spend hours writing about this. In the case of the Quest for the One Tree, Covenant�s Dead don�t actually need to predict and plan for the encounter with the Giants, the willingness of the Giants to redefine their own quest, the voyage to the Elohim, the actions of the Elohim, Vain�s ability to escape the Elohim, the Appointment of Findail, *and* Brinn and Cail�s surrender to the merewives (because without that event Brinn might not have been able to deal with the Guardian). What Covenant�s Dead *do* need is an understanding of character: the character of the ur-viles (Vain�s purpose), the character of the Elohim (why the Elohim might fear both Covenant�s power and Vain�s purpose), the character of Covenant (his instinct for extravagent solutions), and the character of Linden (her need to come to terms with her own capacity for evil). Given such resources, only a little imagination is required to see a variety of possible roads which could all conceivably lead to the same end. One such road: it is Linden rather than the Elohim who unlocks the location of the One Tree from Covenant�s mind (because she must encounter her power to take possession of Covenant in time to learn how wrong such an action is); she and Covenant travel south along the coast of the Land until they encounter a sea-faring race; Covenant wins an approach to the One Tree with wild magic (thus triggering the forces which catalyze Vain); meanwhile the Elohim *have* to take action (it�s really a convenience for them that Covenant and Linden visit them, since Vain�s creation and Covenant�s purpose automatically impose the necessity of a response: the Elohim are obviously going to Appoint one of them regardless of whether or not Covenant and Linden stop by for a sacrificial visit), so the Appointed is �in play� regardless of how Covenant and Linden approach the One Tree. My point? From the perspective of Covenant�s Dead looking forward in the story, there are a variety of conceivable scenarios. Hope doesn�t lie in predicting and planning exactly what Covenant and Linden are going to do: it lies in understanding who Covenant and Linden are. Another way to say the same thing: Covenant�s Dead supply the �raw materials� for a solution to the Land�s plight--and then step back, trusting Covenant and Linden to figure *something* out.

Lord Foul�s position is similar. He�s more of a control-freak, and more directly manipulative; but he still needs to do what Covenant�s Dead must do: understand who he�s dealing with, grasp what must happen *within* those characters to make them do what he wants, and then supply the �raw materials� (venom, etc.) which will make his desired outcome both possible and likely. The more scenarios he can imagine, the more �apt� his raw materials can be; but he really doesn�t have to plan or predict everything that�s going to happen, he simply needs to use his imagination and supply as many catalysts as he can.

In other words, I�m arguing that Lord Foul, like Covenant�s Dead, like King Joyse, like Warden Dios, does not engage in insanely meticulous plotting: rather he engages in a highly creative kind of open-ended thinking; thinking that revolves around the manipulation of characters rather than the manipulation of events.

I hope this helps.

(02/14/2005)

Question: There's a question that's been raging on the "Watch", one that your recent post to the GI further fueled, and it has to do with the Elohim's opposition to Vain's purpose. It seems clear why Findail would have been opposed to Vain's purpose (because Findail thought he would "die" in that scenario), but it's less clear as to why Vain's purpose was undesirable to the rest of the Elohim. Yet in the "What Has Gone Before" for Runes, you make it pretty clear that Covenant is silenced not really to protect the Earth from his power, but rather to make Vain's purpose inaccessible.

Why would the Elohim be opposed to creating a new Staff of Law? Perhaps they preferred having Covenant's ring themselves, but was the alternative an "undesirable" result? If so, why appoint Findail and make Vain's purpose possible?


Answer: This is another example of what I've been calling "open-ended plotting" on the part of the Elohim. Their true desire is that Linden should have and use Covenant's ring. They believe that because of her nature, her health-sense, and her commitment to healing, she could stop Lord Foul (and the Sunbane) without risking the Arch--and without bothering them. So they try to manipulate her into the position of, well, taking over for Covenant. But *just in case* that doesn't happen, they know they need to be prepared for other eventualities as well. For example, they're certainly aware that they might fail at imprisoning Vain. And if they *do* fail, an essential component of their manipulation collapses. So, very much like Lord Foul, they try to prepare for as many different scenarios as they can. If worst comes to worst, and Covenant retains his ring (and his purpose), Lord Foul and the Sunbane still have to be stopped. From their perspective, what actually happens in the story is the least desirable positive outcome.

(03/19/2005)

I think that's enough for now. These address your questions directly.

Well I did post the questions didn't I! You have my word as the trouble has been taken to provide the relavent quotes Z., I will for my part read them; alas, I'm on the way to work so it will have to wait - but for now I'll just return to the 'Findail' point you make above. Yes - Findail was half of the staff, but he was appointed before the attempt to dissolve Vain and thwart his purpose. Why if the SOL was so necessary did the E attempt to do this and what would Findails 'appointed' role have been if they had succeeded. And also the E were quite capable of sending Findail out to meet the quest at any point without blitzing the shit out of TC's mind.

[Apologies if this is covered in the quotes Z, but it was the first point that hit me from your post which I have not been able (as yet) to give the attention it deserves. Work Dohh! ]

2nd post. Have read the above GI quotes now and yes, I do get a clearer picture of SRD's thinking in how he structured his story from them. I'm going to reserve comment upon them untill I've had a chance to re-read them, but clearly I had not placed sufficient import to the fact of the Sunsage and Ring-Wielder's not being a single individual in the E's thinking and subsequent actions. Silly!

peter wrote:The problems seem to me to start with Caer Caverals actions when meeting TC in Andelain. You can almost take the entire 2nd Chrons from the moment where instead of just telling TC how to get to the One Tree, he 'embeded' the knowledge in his unconcious in a manner that forced it to be 'unlocked', as a consequence of this act. Was this his intent and if so - why?

This was his intent. As it was later revealed.

In [i]White Gold Weilder[/i] was wrote:"The last time Covenant was here, Caer-Caveral gave him the location of the One Tree." Each word surprised her like a hint of revelation. "But he hid it so Covenant couldn't reach it himself. That's why he had to expose himself to the Elohim, let them work their plots." The bare memory brought a tremor of anger into her voice. "We should never have had to go there in the first place. Why did Caer-Caveral give him that gift — and then make it such a secret?"

Sunder looked at her. He was no longer smiling. A weird intensity filled his gaze like a swirl of sparks. Abruptly, he said, "Are you not now companioned by the Appointed of the Elohim? How otherwise could that end have been achieved?"

So that's the answer.

It's tempting to think that the Appointed could have found them wherever they went, but it's a bit more complicated, of course. Findail required the silence of the Elohim as a condition of his Appointment, after what appears to be some debate. And that, as has been stated, required Covenant being in Elemesnedene and (to use a phrase) asking for it.

peter wrote:Did he expect Linden to be doing the 'opening' at the appropriate time rather than the Elohim.

That's hard to say, it seems to be somewhere in between the one notion, that the forestal intended (hoped) that Covenant would go to Elemesnedene, and another notion, in which the forestal is providing options and crossing his fingers. Based on other things Donaldson has said, there were probably other paths that would have led to success. This may have been one.

But it brings up another point, which is important. Donaldson, rather than Caer Caveral, had quite a number of requirements here. He needed the story to have a direction that allowed Covenant to resolve what he needed to resolve, and have Linden resolve what she needed to resolve. And that could not have happened if they had not gone to Elemesnedene, if Covenant had not been silenced.

You can find holes in any story if you look for small enough holes. But to me, the hiding of the information was a particularly brilliant way to get everyone to the One Tree -and- to bring about all the other things that needed to happen to Covenant and Linden.

peter wrote:And on this note - why would a 'melding' of TC with Linden and with TC's absolute consent which he assuredly would have given, be posession? Lindens argument against acessing the One Tree map was so full of holes TC could have dismantled it in a second.

Well, it seemed clear to me that Linden's objection wasn't to reading his mind and getting the information, it was about the means for that to occur. According to her, it would have required a possession that took away Covenant's free will in order to unlock that information. On the Gem, she would have had to possess Covenant, take away his free will, in order to get him to stop blasting the ship with his ring. This is something similar. And free will is paramount in this story.

I can't make you like that choice. But I think I can convince you it's not as simple a decision as you have stated. There's a free will issue involved.

peter wrote:And the questions go on; The Elohim say that Vain is antithetical to 'their purpose' and try to dimantle him - but at the same time provide Findail as the Appointed to be the 'other half' of the Staff of Law. What function would Findail have served had the Elohim been sucesfull in destroying Vain. What form then, would his 'appointment ' have taken? What again wa the Elohim's 'purpose' - we never know.

Findail's appointment, as I see it, was this: prevent the rousing of the Worm.

Not stop Lord Foul. Not care about Covenant or Linden. Not stop the Sunbane.

... and that's the paramount thing to remember about the Elohim. Their motivations are not what we would hope that they are.

So, to Findail, pressuring Linden to take the ring would fulfill his appointment. Covenant wandering in a stupor forever fulfilled his appointment. No one would rouse the worm.

What vindicates the Elohim a bit that they were opposed to Vain's purpose, but never took any actions that ruled it out. (They didn't try to destroy him, just imprison him, if you remember.) Findail even healed Vain at one point, to preserve the integrity of his intent.

Joining to Vain was always sort of a punishment for Findail. A form of motivation. Succeed, or become Staff.

Remember this: if Findail knew Vain's purpose, and he knew his own role in that purpose, then he knew that the white gold would be involved in that purpose as well. Findail personally needed Linden to have the ring if that outcome were to come to pass. Imagine the new Staff of Law created by someone who was numb and had no health sense! In this way, Vain's intention aligned with his appointment.

Gotta run to something. I think that's good for now.

I will just add... the other thing that is paramount to remember about the Elohim is that they, like Foul, completely misunderstand and underestimate Covenant and Linden. They don't fully understand what they are capable of. Nor do they fully understand the weaknesses they have.

wayfriend wrote:

peter wrote:The problems seem to me to start with Caer Caverals actions when meeting TC in Andelain. You can almost take the entire 2nd Chrons from the moment where instead of just telling TC how to get to the One Tree, he 'embeded' the knowledge in his unconcious in a manner that forced it to be 'unlocked', as a consequence of this act. Was this his intent and if so - why?

This was his intent. As it was later revealed.

In [i]White Gold Weilder[/i] was wrote:"The last time Covenant was here, Caer-Caveral gave him the location of the One Tree." Each word surprised her like a hint of revelation. "But he hid it so Covenant couldn't reach it himself. That's why he had to expose himself to the Elohim, let them work their plots." The bare memory brought a tremor of anger into her voice. "We should never have had to go there in the first place. Why did Caer-Caveral give him that gift — and then make it such a secret?"

Sunder looked at her. He was no longer smiling. A weird intensity filled his gaze like a swirl of sparks. Abruptly, he said, "Are you not now companioned by the Appointed of the Elohim? How otherwise could that end have been achieved?"

So that's the answer.

That's an answer. It's not the answer. As SRD said himself:

In the GI, Donaldson wrote:... meanwhile the Elohim *have* to take action (it's really a convenience for them that Covenant and Linden visit them, since Vain's creation and Covenant's purpose automatically impose the necessity of a response: the Elohim are obviously going to Appoint one of them regardless of whether or not Covenant and Linden stop by for a sacrificial visit), so the Appointed is "in play" regardless of how Covenant and Linden approach the One Tree.

wayfriend wrote:It's tempting to think that the Appointed could have found them wherever they went, but it's a bit more complicated, of course. Findail required the silence of the Elohim as a condition of his Appointment, after what appears to be some debate. And that, as has been stated, required Covenant being in Elemesnedene and (to use a phrase) asking for it.

As per SRD's point above, they never had to go to the Elohim. They would have gained Findail's Appointment even if they never went there.

wayfriend wrote:

peter wrote:Did he expect Linden to be doing the 'opening' at the appropriate time rather than the Elohim.

That's hard to say, it seems to be somewhere in between the one notion, that the forestal intended (hoped) that Covenant would go to Elemesnedene, and another notion, in which the forestal is providing options and crossing his fingers. Based on other things Donaldson has said, there were probably other paths that would have led to success. This may have been one.

That's exactly what Donaldson said, as I posted above:

In the GI, Donaldson wrote: ... only a little imagination is required to see a variety of possible roads which could all conceivably lead to the same end. One such road: it is Linden rather than the Elohim who unlocks the location of the One Tree from Covenant's mind (because she must encounter her power to take possession of Covenant in time to learn how wrong such an action is);

wayfriend wrote:But it brings up another point, which is important. Donaldson, rather than Caer Caveral, had quite a number of requirements here. He needed the story to have a direction that allowed Covenant to resolve what he needed to resolve, and have Linden resolve what she needed to resolve. And that could not have happened if they had not gone to Elemesnedene, if Covenant had not been silenced.

Why could that not have happened if they had not gone to Elemesnedene? If Linden is forced to "possess" TC in order to find the location of The One Tree in his mind (rather than the Elohim), then she's forced to confront her own capacity for evil. This would have been the equivalent of entering his mind to free him from stasis.

But even the apparent "necessity" of hiding the information inside TC isn't really necessary for Linden's development. It could have been achieved in another way. The venom alone presents a narrative device for Linden's quandary of possessing TC (something she had to consider on the Gem). In fact, that would have linked their crises--her need to confront her capacity for evil, and his need for self-control in light of too much power. This is a point you seem to acknowledge here: "On the Gem, she would have had to possess Covenant, take away his free will, in order to get him to stop blasting the ship with his ring. This is something similar. And free will is paramount in this story." Yes, I agree, they are similar. In fact, it's exactly the same quandary for Linden.


I'm not sure how the trip to Elemesnedene helped Covenant resolve his issues. His crisis involved self-sacrifice, defeating Foul through surrender, and he had Brinn, Seadreamer, and Hamako to inspire him for that.

In the end, Donaldson's reasons are not Caer Caveral's (as you also note above). CC didn't need Linden to resolve her character issues. He's not interested in her narrative arc. So from the internal perspective of the story (i.e. ignoring the author's needs as a writer developing believable characters who need spiritual healing) this is still a problem. Making sense of CC's motivations by referring to SRD's is stepping beyond the text.

wayfriend wrote:Findail's appointment, as I see it, was this: prevent the rousing of the Worm.

Not stop Lord Foul. Not care about Covenant or Linden. Not stop the Sunbane.

If that's the case, then his Appointment would have been over at the end of TOT, and he wouldn't have had to risk himself by continuing any farther with them. TC + ring + venom endangered the Arch, not rousing the Worm ... or at least that's how I understood it. But even if his increasing power endangered the Arch by way of potentially rousing the Worm, this was no longer a danger after melding his venom with white gold in the Banefire. So Findail's purpose would have been over then, if not sooner.

If Findail's purpose was to prevent the rousing of the Worm (and I agree on that point; it's at least part of his purpose), then he damn well should have warned TC about this specific danger at the Isle. He even admits this in TWGW. So the only reason for not doing so was because Donaldson needed a sense of suspense for his readers ... and he needed Vain's transformation via the One Tree (something Findail didn't need or even want).

So, for the reasons above, and for many others, I submit that the structure of the story was chosen primarily to keep the readers in the dark, to keep us guessing, and to provide a heck of a good tale, which included journeying to a mystical "fairy" island. There's nothing wrong with that, since telling a good story is any writer's purpose. But to think that this story could not have been otherwise is just blatantly false, as even SRD admits in the quotes above. In fact, this condition is necessary for his "open-ended plotting" idea (on the part of TC's Dead), by which he escapes the criticism that his characters had to know too much of the future to have everything work out the way it did. Because his story could have worked out any number of different ways, he's able to deny that his plotting characters (Elohim, Foul, CC, the Dead) required omniscience in order to plan for all this to happen the way it did.

Therefore, the reason it happened the way it did was not for plot necessity, but for author necessity. And that included fooling us in order to surprise/shock/delight us later. As he has jokingly admitted, he takes "malicious pleasure" in misleading us. It's not only part of his personality, it's an essential part of his writing style.

But, like any illusionist's trick, it seems kind of cheap once you realize how it was done. And part of that is a sense of feeling cheated by realizing that the motivations of the characters don't entirely make sense.

I'm not sure I could ever feel cheated by the works in this way; I tend [as you will by now have noticed ] not to read too critically. As I say, it is only now after 5(?) readings that these 'problems' are arising for me, and this may well be because I am now 'on the Watch' and just, as a result, tend to be 'reading deeper' than I have in the past. The quality of the story is paramount for me, and whatever authorial slight of hand is needed to achieve the best results is by and large fine by me. But even as a result of reading SRD's GI comments and the exchange below, I see that there are aspects that, if they are not laid before me, I just won't get - and in all likelyhood still won't get even if they are!

Can I just raise one point however; did not the Elohim try to destoy Vain [by dissolution] as he broke free of the Clachan, very much indicative that Findail would have still had a significant role to play even had he not been 'half staff'. {Why were the Elohim so 'anti' a new staff being formed anyway - was it just fear about rousing the Worm. Why didn't Berek (was it Berek) wake the Worm when he cut off the first SOL?}

peter wrote:The quality of the story is paramount for me, and whatever authorial slight of hand is needed to achieve the best results is by and large fine by me.

By and large I agree. There's no point in making the story go a different way for logical reasons when the result is a less compelling story. As long as the arbitrary choices are hidden well enough that they don't glare, it's all good. I want to hear what the author wants to say, not what he is compelled to say for the sake of an internal consistency which is, in the end, impossible to achieve.

peter wrote:Can I just raise one point however; did not the Elohim try to destoy Vain [by dissolution]

That's a good question. As I see it, it's a use of force to compel Vain, not slay Vain. And, as it did no lasting harm, it's even arguable whether the Elohim considered it fatal to Vain.

peter wrote:{Why were the Elohim so 'anti' a new staff being formed anyway - was it just fear about rousing the Worm.

Well certainly Findail considered the formation of the Staff the end of his life. "I must not die," he cried. And it's certainly possible that "Earthpower Incarnate" would dislike anything that bound Earthpower into a constrained form. Elemesnedene demonstrates the Elohim desire a freedom of expression and perhaps even a rejection of structure.

peter wrote:Why didn't Berek (was it Berek) wake the Worm when he cut off the first SOL?}

That's an old one. As far as we can say and limit the answer to the Second Chronicles, it's because he did not win his way with combat.

In [i]White Gold Weilder[/i] was wrote:"We couldn't get a branch of the One Tree. There was no way. But it's been done before. How did Berek do it?"

Findail paused at the wall, answered over his shoulder. "The Worm was not made restive by his approach, for he did not win his way with combat. In that age, the One Tree had no Guardian. It was he himself who gave the Tree its ward, setting the Guardian in place so that the vital wood of the world's life would not again be touched or broken."

Well, you can't argue with that!

Well, you can argue with that if you use evidence from the Last Chronicles, but that would be a spoiler in this forum, which is probably why WF said, "As far as we can say and limit the answer to the Second Chronicles ..."

While we're on the subject of internal consistency, this is a big one. Even Donaldson admits he f*cked up royally on this issue. Search the GI for "guardian" and I'm sure you'll find it. You can scroll down for the reponses that are hidden, and speed your search.

While every author is human, I don't agree with the premise that internal consistency is impossible, nor is the goal of attaining it something that should be tossed aside for the sake of a compelling story. Part of what makes a story compelling--especially in the case of invented worlds we see in fantasy literature--is the "appearance of reality." Suspension of disbelief is necessary, even more so as you move away from the familiar into the alien. Plot holes break this fragile suspension, and damages one of the key ingredients that fantasy requires to make it compelling.

The most problematic inconsistencies are those that occur when the author's goals supercede the goals of his characters, revealing not only his lack of attention to detail, but also his manipulation of large-scale structures as something other than a product of the world or the characters. While it's true that everything is the author's invention, it's useless if we can't forget this. It's like a magician's trick: what's the point if everyone can see how it's done while you do it? The very reason for doing it in the first place has been undermined. You might as well write an essay which spells out your themes.

Now granted, this is an argument that probably should be made in terms of degree. The suspension of disbelief isn't entirely shattered by single examples. But given the numbers of questions on these issues submitted to the GI, I think an argument can be made for describing them as "glaring."

However, the flip side is that it gets people like us thinking and talking about the text, probably more than if the book was perfectly seamless.

Each of us can clearly only speak on their own behalf in respect of this, but as I noted above, I have read and re-read many times without so much as a thought on these 'problems' [I enclose them in inverted coma's because I'm still not yet clear that there are real inconsistencies that do not at least largely resolve with a little 'pulling and tugging' here and there], other than a momentary 'Hmm - not sure I'm getting that'. But in reading on, the issue dissapears almost at once and by the end - well, you're so sated [repleat would be a better word] that any questions seem of little consequence. This is really the first time I have 'cast a critical eye' on the 1st and 2nd Chrons [specifically because I'm very interested to see how the whole edifice is going to stand up once I throw the last Chrons into the mix as well.

Clearly I can't talk of specific issues here, but at last we have the full and final work in front of us and it will be a real test of SRD's ability to construct a coherent story, to see if over a gap of 35[ish] years he was still able to weave a final series seamlesly into the whole, without relying on our poor memories of 'what has gone before' in order to 'get away with it'. In other words when taken as a 'single gulp' will the whole still hang together. If it begins to unravell, then as Z. says above it's 'Houston, we have a problem' time.

To get back to the original questions about vindication:

peter wrote:What was the wurd of the Elohim that demanded all of this

Well, as they said, their würd was their "ethic". And the ethics of the Elohim were to protect the Earth from complete destruction. In this case Covenant, as a potential Worm-rouser, was the danger they felt compelled to address. They addressed this by imposing their silence - a choice they felt balanced harm and good. And their silence required Covenant choosing to accept it, albeit while misunderstanding the choice. The insults and the sorrow they inflicted were, in the end, a means of motivating Covenant's choice. He was made to feel like the only option available was to let the Elohim into his mind.

peter wrote:and were their actions vindicated by the end of the second Chrons

Measured on the basis of Worm-arousal, they were vindicated. The Earth didn't end.

However, they demonstrated in several ways that they did not understand what either Covenant or Linden were actually capable of, or what motivated them. Like Foul, they played them wrong. The result was Covenant and Linden evaded their intentions to some degree ... and then found their own way to avoid Worm-arousal. On this basis, the Elohim failed - the Earth was saved, but despite the Elohim more than because of them.

So "vindication" depends on how much you think about the means, and how much the ends.

peter wrote:- or were they just wrong, up themselves and a bunch of assholes from start to finish?

Well, yeah, mostly. But the errors they made about Covenant were errors of underestimation. Would you have been sure Covenant would not rouse the worm?

peter wrote:Did the Sunsage and Ring-weilder have to be one or not?

Yes. Didn't that happen in the end? The Elohim failed to understand that Linden wasn't ready to be a Ringweilder just yet. Their assumption that Sunsage and Ringweilder would be one shows that they did not comprehend completely Covenant and Linden.

It occurs to me that TC's ring [and by extension his actual power] was never really that much use to him at all. Certainly Linden, with her health sense and the newly created SOL in her hands was able to get far more use from the ring than TC ever could. He couldn't fight Foul with it, he couldn't save the world with it - in the end he could barely use it at all for fear of tearing the world apart with it! TC's trick was really just that he managed to pull it all off - with nothing!

[In answer to the question, no - absolutely not I wouldn't have trusted him ]

I like Donaldson's depiction of the paradox of power. I think TC's dilemma in the 2nd Chrons was the most interesting character arc in all 10 books. However, it is disappointing that at some point he didn't make better use of his ring. After all, it was supposed to symbolize a vital part of his spirit, his passion, his freewill. Granted, there's at least one powerful example of using it in a positive manner by the end of the LC, but that was largely "off-screen" so that we didn't get to see it. And it seemed too easy, too fast.

But as far as the first two Chronicles, I have no complaints in that regard. It was a clever way to tweak the audience's expectations. We all wanted him to use his magic. Donaldson found ingenius ways to frustrate that desire, thereby ratcheting up the tension.

peter wrote:It occurs to me that TC's ring [and by extension his actual power] was never really that much use to him at all.

I consider Covenant's most significant character arc in the second Cs to be his coming to terms with the uselessness of his power.

I tend to see the story advancing in this way: what was a strength in one Chronicles becomes a weakness in the next ... requiring Covenant to grow and change further. The first Chronicles required Covenant to come to terms with his power, and with being set up to be a savior. In the second Chronicles, that's where Covenant starts ... but Foul's venom changes the whole equation, and now his power, and his desire to be the savior, work against him.

Gotta give Foul credit, that venom was exactly the right kind of jujitsu to use. Once bitten, Covenant has lost the game. The rest of the story is about Covenant figuring that out. And then figuring out what to do about it.