Our automated future and the human cost

[aliantha]

What's wrong with becoming a better person as a "personal goal"? What's wrong with simply aiming to create something beautiful? Why do "personal goals" always have to be about money?

I'm no socialist, but I've never had any desire to be wealthy. Money isn't what drives me. It's a necessary evil to me. And I kind of resent the fact that I have to worry about it.

u., I meant to mention that I very much like your definitions, but I got sidetracked by the education thing.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Absolutely nothing--"becoming a better person" should be one of our three most important goals no matter who we are.

Having money--not that I have tons of it but we manage to pay our bills--is a great thing but, as you note, when you make that your number one goal in life you lose sight of many things. I will probably never become "wealthy" in the traditional sense, but I will try to get to the point where the car(s) and the house are paid off and we own them completely. At that point, money is only a convenient way of paying the monthly bills.

Trying to transition away from money at this point would require a shift in everyone's way of thinking everywhere in the world. That isn't going to happen any time soon. Maybe concrete evidence of or contact with an intelligent species from some other planet will do it, but that is the only thing big enough to bring about a significant shift in our priorities.

[SoulBiter]

But that doesn't build you a better or more advanced society. Money is merely a medium of exchange that represents the resources that you have earned. By trading in that medium I get to trade my knowledge/service/product, for another persons knowledge/service/product. Quite frankly its still the barter system just measured differently.

Being a better person as a personal goal sounds good and is a great goal, but it won't harvest corn for you. It won't pump out my septic tank when its full. It wont repair your car for you when its broken. It wont go out and explore for new resources. Society needs a form of structure to exist and to advance. The more people vs resources the more structure is needed to ensure society continues to run along smoothly.

[aliantha]

The corn harvesting and septic-tank pumping are going to be automated. Car repair (the diagnostic part, at least) is computerized already, and much of the rest can probably be solved by plug-and-play modules whose manufacture will be automated.

*We aren't going to need to do these jobs in the future.* So we are going to have to think differently about the nature of work. That's the premise that kicked off this thread. The question is, if we don't have to work for a living, how can we find value in life? It sounds to me like your answer is, "We can't."

[SoulBiter]

That puts us possibly another 100 years in the future....

OK so no more jobs.... again how do you find worth and do we get to the point where the machines fix the machines and build the machines? Heinlein, Asimov, Clark and many others have written books on this kind of thing... of course its all speculation. In some of the books the human race no longer exists, or they lose themselves to Cryo and drugs. In others humans leave the planet to its own devices and go exploring the universe.

I don't think I have the answer. I find worth in enjoying the things in life that are there for me to enjoy. A good glass of wine or beer in the evenings. Cooking with my wife or going out to dinner. Fixing up the house and landscaping the yard. Traveling, reading, fishing, hiking, ski'ing, spending time with friends, helping others. I'm past the point that I really want to go back to school but not past the point of learning new things. But how do those translate into self worth for people at the beginning of their lives rather than halfway or better through it? Is self-worth a requirement at all or is that an illusion?

[aliantha]

I find worth in enjoying the things in life that are there for me to enjoy. A good glass of wine or beer in the evenings. Cooking with my wife or going out to dinner. Fixing up the house and landscaping the yard. Traveling, reading, fishing, hiking, ski'ing, spending time with friends, helping others. I'm past the point that I really want to go back to school but not past the point of learning new things. But how do those translate into self worth for people at the beginning of their lives rather than halfway or better through it?

I don't think any of the things you named have any relation to age.

I agree with you that this is all speculation. But so is whether the states would act to dissolve the federal government, and we got 4 pages and counting out of that...

[SoulBiter]

I find worth in enjoying the things in life that are there for me to enjoy. A good glass of wine or beer in the evenings. Cooking with my wife or going out to dinner. Fixing up the house and landscaping the yard. Traveling, reading, fishing, hiking, ski'ing, spending time with friends, helping others. I'm past the point that I really want to go back to school but not past the point of learning new things. But how do those translate into self worth for people at the beginning of their lives rather than halfway or better through it?

I don't think any of the things you named have any relation to age.

I agree with you that this is all speculation. But so is whether the states would act to dissolve the federal government, and we got 4 pages and counting out of that...

I don't think you can do away with 'work' and have a viable society. When you do that, society will degrade... "people forget how to make the machines" and within a few generations the human race are children.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Simple--we will find self-worth in the things we will be able to accomplish because we aren't working at a traditional job or in the things we enjoy doing (which may actually be the same thing). Who knows where the next Bach will come from? With time to pursue music it could be anyone. Questions which are currently unanswered in science could be answered as more people pursue academic interests because they aren't having to work. Even leisure activity could be a more rewarding and "time-consuming" activity--you made your own boat by hand and now you are taking it out on the lake for some quiet time with some friends or loved ones.

We sometimes get asked that question now: if you didn't have to work to earn money, if all your needs were met, what would you do with your time?

[Ananda]

For a new system idea, there is the Venus Project. www.thevenusproject.com
It is very with its head in the clouds in places, but it is deviation from the current thought system from the money and command/control structure to a resource based economy for the new world you guys are talking about.

My personal thoughts on this:
Read it... didn't like it. Socialism plain and simple. "For each according to their need. From each according to their ability", but on a World wide scale. A resource based economy where all resources are divided out so that everyone gets to enjoy the worlds resources. No more having the few 'rich' control billions of dollars (today's representation of resources) while others go hungry. No more having the wealthy afford the best healthcare while people die in Uganda.

Where in this is the entrepreneurial opportunity and competition that comes with striving to 'have more'? Where is the 'personal' motivation to produce goods?

Those that already have 'more', why would they give that up? Would that be forced on them?

Any system where you can receive more goods based on how much you contribute will have those that rise to the top. Every time. At some point we are on the same system but with resources as the barter rather than money. For a while it might seem to be working, but eventually those that rise, will dominate the resources. The only way to not have that happen would be to be strictly Socialist or Communist.

Society is not going to change to a 'pie in the sky' system and that's a good thing. People need a reason to strive, beyond an idea of what society could be. People need a 'personal goal' and perhaps that should be plural, to strive for. Something that gives them 'personal gain'. Its ingrained in the fiber of what it means to be human.

Maybe we weren't meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums.

"

SB, I wasn't endorsing it really, though I think it has some very interesting ideas. I was mainly showing it as an example of outside the current paradigm thinking for future civilisation.

One thing I learned early is that all that we think of as real in regards to our systems, 'how life works' and so is just an agreed upon delusion or however you want to say it (too late to come up with the right word ). All these systems we've set up don't have to be the way they are. They just are because we agree to act like they are. There are many other ways of doing things: we just choose this one currently.

You ever watch or read anything from James Burke (nothing to do with the venus project)? I watched The Day the Universe Changed on tape when I was a teen in the 80s and it really had an affect on me. This last line of the series really sums it up:
“If, as I've said all along, the universe at any time is what you say it is, then say.”
This is a speech he makes that relates to this topic, I think. It's from 1985.
youtu.be/6QgNpYg0IOU?t=39m45s

[aliantha]

Simple--we will find self-worth in the things we will be able to accomplish because we aren't working at a traditional job or in the things we enjoy doing (which may actually be the same thing). Who knows where the next Bach will come from? With time to pursue music it could be anyone. Questions which are currently unanswered in science could be answered as more people pursue academic interests because they aren't having to work. Even leisure activity could be a more rewarding and "time-consuming" activity--you made your own boat by hand and now you are taking it out on the lake for some quiet time with some friends or loved ones.

Agreed, Hashi. Think of what Einstein could have come up with if he hadn't had to work at the patent office....

And too, it frosts my buns when I think of the R&D money that corporations plow into coming up with new deodorant scents and new cereals that turn kids' mouths weird colors, and think of the beneficial things that money could be spent on instead (cure for cancer?).

I'm glad I started this thread. I'm becoming more optimistic by the second.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I'm glad I started this thread. I'm becoming more optimistic by the second.

I could be mistaken but I think this is a Tank first--someone becoming more optimistic because of a thread here.

You are right, though--it is bizarre that we work for businesses, our efforts leading to the business making money, and it return they pay us money so that we can take our money and go spend it elsewhere, leading those businesses to make money with which they can pay their employees, some of whom might spend money at our business. Okay, in general it works but how did we get to the place where everything boils down to exchanges of money? I suppose it was a long series of incremental steps, none of which would get us here on their own.

[SoulBiter]

I'm glad I started this thread. I'm becoming more optimistic by the second.

I could be mistaken but I think this is a Tank first--someone becoming more optimistic because of a thread here.

You are right, though--it is bizarre that we work for businesses, our efforts leading to the business making money, and it return they pay us money so that we can take our money and go spend it elsewhere, leading those businesses to make money with which they can pay their employees, some of whom might spend money at our business. Okay, in general it works but how did we get to the place where everything boils down to exchanges of money? I suppose it was a long series of incremental steps, none of which would get us here on their own.

As I stated above. Money is no more or less than a more advanced 'Barter' system. At some point it was no longer feasable to drag your chickens and goats and crops around with you to sell or to have someone come and buy them. Thus a currency which represents your resources is born. From there we got to where we are now.

Now except to say "Oh machines will do that for us" I haven't see a specific idea that would get us off our current monetary/work system and still advance society. Say what you will and maybe I'm just a cynic, but people typically are lazy and self centered. This idea that everyone will get on board with using all resouces to solve social problems isn't realistic.

[ussusimiel]

Say what you will and maybe I'm just a cynic, but people typically are lazy and self centered. This idea that everyone will get on board with using all resouces to solve social problems isn't realistic.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, SB, I think, left to their own devices, people will end up like those in 'Idiocracy', which is why I have been speaking at length about the importance of education. If we only educate people for work (and to be consumers) and there is no work for them to do then we are going to end up where you predict.

The primary place that education has its most important role is in how we educate our young (as we have been dicussing upthread). IMO, laying a totally different groundwork for future generations will be crucial to avoiding immense social problems.

On another front, one of the functions of tax can be to encourage people to work. It might be possible to tweak this in such a way that the more education (arts, science, psychology, philosophy etc.) and skills (crafts, music, painting etc.) that people acquired the more money they received. This would still leave money as the measure of 'worth', but 'worth' would be defined in a totally different way.

u.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Now except to say "Oh machines will do that for us" I haven't see a specific idea that would get us off our current monetary/work system and still advance society. Say what you will and maybe I'm just a cynic, but people typically are lazy and self centered. This idea that everyone will get on board with using all resouces to solve social problems isn't realistic.

You aren't cynical, only a realist. Individual people are creative, imaginative, rational, and intelligent. Large groups of people, on the other hand, are lazy, irrational, overly emotional, and stupid. A more likely scenario is that there would be one group of people living in luxury in cities where money and resources aren't a concern as they surround themselves with works of art and chit-chat about various academic subjects while the other group of people are illiterate, roving bands of raiders who live in caves and forage for their daily food. (not really but the imagery was interesting)

No, this Venus Project is pure fantasy into which only dreamers and little children will invest themselves.

[Ananda]

No, this Venus Project is pure fantasy into which only dreamers and little children will invest themselves.[/color]

This is why I hesitate to post things sometimes.

So, NOTHING they talk about is the least bit interesting? It is just dreamers and little children?

As I said, I don't endorse them and said they have their head in the clouds as the first thing about them, but they have some interesting ideas. The point, I thought, of this thread was to talk about what people are coming up with as a future paradigm for how our societies can work. All ideas start off as dreams. It takes dreamers to make new things happen (and the practical people around them who can see the idea and work with it to make it reality rather than the people who just say 'no'). These people are dreaming, of course- That is the whole point!

You don't have to swallow the pill as they present it, but it is possible to see some creative ideas and think, 'hmm, how can something like part of what they say work and how would it look?' Most people, though, just look through the filter of how things are and dismiss ideas of radical change if they see things that don't fit with their current paradigm.

[Avatar]

Pretty much agree with Ananda there. The point is not that this particular group or idea is going to transform things, the point is that we need to find some alternative paradigm that will enable us to cope with (and perhaps transcend) the changes that things like increasing automation etc. will cause in society.

Dismissing one group does not relieve the necessity. Nor does it mean that some head in the clouds bunch won't get it right and find this new paradigm.

As SB said, we don't have a workable idea yet. But the only way to find one is to go looking. And we need to find one, one way or another.

--A

[Vraith]

As SB said, we don't have a workable idea yet. But the only way to find one is to go looking. And we need to find one, one way or another.

--A

A thing I've noted previously in other places.
I don't have any good thoughts right now I haven't put other places...but I'm thinking on what people are saying...the pieces being tossed out.

I do have a thing on the "people are lazy, they won't do anything, society will collapse."
I don't know why that would be the case. Some portion...a fairly small one...don't want to do a damn thing. But most people LIKE producing...they just don't like being forced to produce things, or for people, that they find stupid, boring, whatever.
And I'm not for one instant convinced that society has advanced because people HAVE to work.
I don't think for a second that all the drive, ambition, pursuit, seeking comes from the need for food, shelter, clothing.

[aliantha]

Some portion...a fairly small one...don't want to do a damn thing. But most people LIKE producing...they just don't like being forced to produce things, or for people, that they find stupid, boring, whatever.

Or ethically challenged, or...yeah. Agreed.

I'd also like to mention that Waddley's going into aerospace engineering (I think that's her major, anyway -- it's definitely engineering) of her own free will. People will still become scientists and researchers because they love science and research. The difference would be the lack of people who are drawn to high-paying professions simply because of the high pay, and who end up hating it and wishing they were doing something else.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

This is why I hesitate to post things sometimes.

So, NOTHING they talk about is the least bit interesting? It is just dreamers and little children?

Now, Ananda...don't let my grumpiness stop you from putting ideas or opinions out there. They actually had a lot of interesting ideas--building new cities from scratch with balance and scalability in mind using technologies and design concepts which don't cause more harm than good, for example--that I wouldn't mind seeing become reality but I am just too much of a grouse to hold out hope. Maybe if people started pleasantly surprising more often rather than reinforcing my half realistic/half pessimistic outlook on things then I might cheer up a little. Or...perhaps I should change my own attitude and not concern myself with what other people do so much.

Speaking of aerospace engineering, some guy just built an all-electric plane and it is performing so well and meeting all the standards that the FAI (the French version of the United States' FAA) has approved its use for small commercial use. His plane doesn't have to account for the weight of fuel, extending its flight range.

[Damelon]

Agreed, Hashi. Think of what Einstein could have come up with if he hadn't had to work at the patent office....

And too, it frosts my buns when I think of the R&D money that corporations plow into coming up with new deodorant scents and new cereals that turn kids' mouths weird colors, and think of the beneficial things that money could be spent on instead (cure for cancer?).

Who said that Einstein didn't have time to daydream while working at the patent office?

Companies plow money into devising new deodorant scents because people put value in masking otherwise smelling like a goat.

It's not like people place no value in finding a cure for cancer, they do, but the issue becomes how many resources can be realistically applied to it: The amount of labor is finite and people value other things besides finding medical cures. Also only so many people have the training to know what they are doing; and the machines by themselves can't find a cure without someone knowing how to set them.

Riffing in another field, while machines can probably mass produce rotgut wine, they won't be able to mass produce a fine pinot noir. Yet, without money, there would be no way to place the value difference that people now and ever will place between the two.

No, in my opinion, we won't be replacing money for a long time.

What will we all do then if machines make work obsolete? Obviously, we have to find new ways to create value. But now, I have to go to work and try to create some value. I'll try to get back at this sometime this weekend.