Kevin's Watch

For several reasons this topic is coming up for me a lot right now.

I am working on a play that deals with the survivors of the holocaust forgiving those that imprisoned them. So I have been watching and reading a lot of testimonies from survivors. I am also dealing with my own issues around forgiveness. How do I forgive my mother for her suicide? How do I forgive myself for my mothers suicide? (and other things). For reasons I did not understand at first, even the survivors of the holocaust that stated they forgave their captors appeared false to me. Or maybe the word is forced. It just does not seem natural to just forgive? I got the feeling that these people were saying that a god and society expects them to forgive so they forgive. I also got the feeling that if you dug deeper that these people were still angry. How does a person just let go and say I choose to forgive you? What do you do with all that anger?

I came across a video of a woman that survived an pretty brutal assault and was discussing anger and forgiveness.

video.pbs.org/video/1855885830/

And what she said made sense to me. Before you can genuinely forgive someone you have to give a voice to your anger. And more importantly you have to be heard. There has to be a witness to your anger.

This is a tough topic, and I'm not sure I've got a handle on it myself.

My problem with the concept of forgiveness has been that in our culture, it comes all wrapped up with a Judeo-Christian bow -- all that "turn the other cheek" stuff. And "forgive and forget" -- yeah, right. Forgetting doesn't happen.

I've got more to say (a lot more!) but I'll leave it there for now.

lorin wrote:And what she said made sense to me. Before you can genuinely forgive someone you have to give a voice to your anger. And more importantly you have to be heard. There has to be a witness to your anger.

No. Do not make that a prerequisite for forgiveness. How many people over how many years have heard and witnessed your anger? Many. And most, if not all, have justified that anger. Those here who have read your posts have said as much. Who wouldn't?

And how's it working out? Is forgiveness happening? Is your anger lessened? It seems to me that you're having an extremely difficult time of it lately. After all that witnessing and justifying. Is the problem that your mother can't hear it? And respond? That's a problem. She can't. And nobody else hearing you matters.

Since you can't have the only one who actually matters hear you, don't make it a prerequisite. Don't have a prerequisite. The forgiveness is to help you. That's the point of it. Forgiving your mother won't help anybody or anything other than you. And why put a prerequisite on healing yourself? Even if your mother was here - or at any other time if anybody who harms you is present to hear you - don't make them hearing you important. Do it for yourself. Do it now. It's torn you apart long enough.

So yeah, that's the simple part. I don't have any idea how to make you able to do it. My mother brought a prick into our lives when I was in 7th grade. The male figure we lived with, who we saw more than any other. My father was still around, but this was the guy we would see on a daily basis. He broke various bones of my mother over the years. Tore phones out of walls. Threw things through walls. Belittled, screamed, and bullied us when he felt like it.

Honestly? I seldom think of it. When this kind of topic comes up, I can bring up the memories easily enough. But, filth though he was (He later went to prison for beating and raping the woman he was dating while still married to my mother, after the woman broke it off with him.), I can't dredge up anger, and I literally never dwell on it. I won't be thinking about it five minutes from now. How do I get you to that mindset? I have no idea. I wish I did. There's a world full of people who need that. I think, "Why can't they just let it go? Why think about the things that it hurts to think about? Think about the things that make you happy!" But I know it's not that easy. And I never made the choice to do it. It's just the way I am.

But even though I can't tell you how to stop the pain, to forgive, to stop thinking about it, I know it's the answer. What else could be? Stop hurting yourself. Because, at this point, nobody else is hurting you.

We all have our own circles of hell, don't we?

You're right about expressing the anger not helping, though, Fist. My brother knows I'm angry at him for all the emotional abuse he handed me when I was a kid, and the gods know he hasn't given me an "I'm sorry" in return. Nor is he likely to. He's too caught up in his own version of events -- as would be the prick your mother married, and as would be lorin's mother.

Lorin,

Is this the same documentary:

www.pbs.org/program/forgiveness/

It was quite powerful.

SerScot wrote:Lorin,

Is this the same documentary:

www.pbs.org/program/forgiveness/

It was quite powerful.

SB - Thank you!!!!

I didn't see the full series. I am trying to track it down now. The link, as I see it is for the previews. When I track it down I will post it.

Fist and Faith wrote:

lorin wrote:And what she said made sense to me. Before you can genuinely forgive someone you have to give a voice to your anger. And more importantly you have to be heard. There has to be a witness to your anger.

No. Do not make that a prerequisite for forgiveness. How many people over how many years have heard and witnessed your anger? Many. And most, if not all, have justified that anger. Those here who have read your posts have said as much. Who wouldn't?

And how's it working out? Is forgiveness happening? Is your anger lessened? It seems to me that you're having an extremely difficult time of it lately. After all that witnessing and justifying. Is the problem that your mother can't hear it? And respond? That's a problem. She can't. And nobody else hearing you matters.

Since you can't have the only one who actually matters hear you, don't make it a prerequisite. Don't have a prerequisite. The forgiveness is to help you. That's the point of it. Forgiving your mother won't help anybody or anything other than you. And why put a prerequisite on healing yourself? Even if your mother was here - or at any other time if anybody who harms you is present to hear you - don't make them hearing you important. Do it for yourself. Do it now. It's torn you apart long enough.

So yeah, that's the simple part. I don't have any idea how to make you able to do it. My mother brought a prick into our lives when I was in 7th grade. The male figure we lived with, who we saw more than any other. My father was still around, but this was the guy we would see on a daily basis. He broke various bones of my mother over the years. Tore phones out of walls. Threw things through walls. Belittled, screamed, and bullied us when he felt like it.

Honestly? I seldom think of it. When this kind of topic comes up, I can bring up the memories easily enough. But, filth though he was (He later went to prison for beating and raping the woman he was dating while still married to my mother, after the woman broke it off with him.), I can't dredge up anger, and I literally never dwell on it. I won't be thinking about it five minutes from now. How do I get you to that mindset? I have no idea. I wish I did. There's a world full of people who need that. I think, "Why can't they just let it go? Why think about the things that it hurts to think about? Think about the things that make you happy!" But I know it's not that easy. And I never made the choice to do it. It's just the way I am.

But even though I can't tell you how to stop the pain, to forgive, to stop thinking about it, I know it's the answer. What else could be? Stop hurting yourself. Because, at this point, nobody else is hurting you.

Fist, I see your point. I hope, really want to get to the point you are right now with in your emotional maturity regarding, do I call him your step father? I am just not there. I feel like I may never be there. I get so tired (not from you) of hearing forgive her/me/others and the anger will go away. You will stop thinking about it. It isn't a button you switch on and off. And I resent all these people that just say forgive and forget. Actually not many people say that because in my 3D life family NEVER discusses IT and I have never told anyone. So here, you lucky folks, get it all (except for the $135/hr therapist). So then I wonder if their forgiveness is real or if some day someone will scratch the surface and all that anger will just drip out. I know, I know - this is black and white, all or nothing thinking.

I just feel there is a place to be angry. I am right to be angry. It is a battle I have with myself every day. Part of me says my poor mother, she was alone, she was depressed, she was damaged. And then I say wow, I can forgive her. Who am I to judge what she did? And then the other part of me says ....wait a minute...look at all the damage her selfish act did. Look at the fallout. And poof......I'm angry again.

Getting back to my point, isn't there a place for anger? Has it gotten to the point in our society where we are almost forced to forgive and forget? Is it religious dogma, Christ on the cross forgive them for they know not what they do mind set that almost makes us feel like we are obligated to forgive?

aliantha wrote:We all have our own circles of hell, don't we?

You're right about expressing the anger not helping, though, Fist. My brother knows I'm angry at him for all the emotional abuse he handed me when I was a kid, and the gods know he hasn't given me an "I'm sorry" in return. Nor is he likely to. He's too caught up in his own version of events -- as would be the prick your mother married, and as would be lorin's mother.

Can I/they be angry and still be emotionally healthy?

Your last sentence is the answer to all the others. Yes, you are right to be angry. Who wouldn't be????? Anger is part of what makes us human. Perhaps unfortunately, but it's how things are for our species. We get angry for muuuuuuuch less significant things than what you went through. There surely is unjustified anger out there, but yours is not.

And yet, your anger - justified, maybe righteous - is killing you. I don't say forgive out of obligation. Do it out of self-preservation. Do it so you can live as life is meant to be lived.

But we're back to the problem of how. I wish I knew. I'm telling you that you have to do an unspeakably difficult thing, but don't give you a clue as to how. The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is something you just touched on. Your mother was mentally ill. She was not a vicious piece of filth, like my stepfather and ali's brother. She killed herself. That says significant things about her. The vicious filth are arrogant and self-righteous. Your mother was in pain. Such pain that she couldn't contain it. She was often not aware that it bled out of her into you. And we know her pain was horribly strong, because she ended it in the only way she could. She was an artist, expressing things in beautiful ways. She even expressed her pain in beautiful ways. But it wasn't enough. It didn't stop the pain. Maybe temporarily, now and then. But it wasn't enough. So she ended the pain the only way it could be ended.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not presuming to be insightful or brilliant enough to know your mother to any degree. I know that's nothing like a full picture of her. You know her failings and her sins far more than I do. That's not the totality of her. But it is accurate, to some degree. Maybe you need to ignore the other parts, and concentrate on that. Because that part of her is forgivable. She had some wonderful things going on in her life. A talent and drive that most people would kill for. A husband and children. And yet she was always in as much pain as you are. And she killed herself. Shakespeare never wrote a sadder tragedy.

If your arm was gangrenous, you'd cut it off to save your life. Your anger and sorrow are as much a part of you as your arm, but they are worse than gangrene. Don't hang on to them because they are justified. Don't hang on to them because you're afraid there will be nothing left if they are gone. Don't hang on to them out of habit. Don't hang on to them. Fight for your life with the seemingly impossible act of forgiving someone who, most of the time, you thing doesn't deserve it. And maybe she doesn't. But keeping your rage does not hurt her in the slightest. She has no idea you feel it, and probably didn't know you felt it when she was alive. It serves no purpose, and it's destroying you. Do you want to argue that you should keep it? I doubt it. So find a way to do the impossible thing I'm telling you to do.

lorin wrote:Getting back to my point, isn't there a place for anger? Has it gotten to the point in our society where we are almost forced to forgive and forget? Is it religious dogma, Christ on the cross forgive them for they know not what they do mind set that almost makes us feel like we are obligated to forgive?

Yes, I think you're right. Which is one of my big problems with the whole "forgiveness" thing. You're a bad (fill in the monotheistic religion of your choice) if you can't forgive those who trespassed against you.

This is another reason why I object to the Judeo-Christian good/bad dichotomy, btw -- it's too easy to judge someone as "bad" when their thoughts or actions don't line up with what somebody else thinks is "good".

Anyway.

I've come to the conclusion that "forgiveness" is the wrong word. It's more of an acknowledgement of the other person's flawed humanity. You're not forgiving them (if you absolutely must use that term) for the wrongs they perpetrated on you; you're forgiving them for being human. That doesn't mean they get a free pass for what they did, and it doesn't mean you're not going to guard against letting them -- or anybody else -- do it to you again. And it doesn't mean you have to stop being angry at them. Anger is an emotion, and you can't turn emotions on and off on a whim. Anger is a perfectly valid response to what happened to you. (Which I'm sure your $135/hr. therapist has told you on multiple occasions. ) And you built those defenses -- the shell of anger and whatever else you did -- for a perfectly good reason: at the time, you needed to protect yourself, and that's what you came up with, and it worked (at least to some degree), so you kept it.

But at some point, the anger, and the defenses you've erected against being hurt again, begin to hurt you. They're keeping you from fully living your life. So you have to take them down. It ain't easy. (I'm doing some work of my own along similar lines right now. Those emotions are well-rooted, and man oh man, you just keep digging and you think you've got it all, and then you find another damn taproot.)

Fist, I wouldn't call my brother's actions vicious, although.... Oh, all right, here's the story, which I'm pretty sure I haven't told here before. I'll try to keep it to the Reader's Digest version.

My parents had three children, but only two of us survived. My brother was 8 or 9 when my sister was born. By all accounts, she was a perfect baby. My brother reportedly doted on her. But she had been born with heart and lung defects, and was just short of 7 months old when she died.

Something more than a year later, I came along. You do the math -- I was the replacement child. (Which my father confirmed to me much later, in his own inimitable way .) My brother did *not* dote on me; our interactions involved him teasing me until I cried. You could write that off as typical sibling crap, except that I never felt that he liked me even a little bit. Eventually, I assumed he hated me because I wasn't Cynthia.

A year or so ago, he gave me not an apology, but an explanation. Turns out he was jealous of me. Our father had been abusive to him when he was little (which Mom had told me about), and he perceived me as the child they actually wanted. Which left me wondering how our parents managed to raise *both* of us to feel like they wanted a different kid.

Anyway, the point is that I'm still angry at him for bullying me; it's a perfectly valid response to what he put me through, and I doubt that will ever go away. And I'm still hyper-sensitive in my dealings with him -- I don't ask him for favors or tell him anything, really, about my life, because he has the same talent our father had of making you feel like an idiot about it. (Family-of-origin relationships suck. Please make a note of it. ) But I acknowledge that my brother was going through his own stuff back then, which he probably has not yet fully worked through and probably never will. And in that sense, I can forgive him for being human.

And I have a different family now -- my own kids, and the supportive friends I've made, both here on the Watch and in real life. The only time I think about my brother these days is in connection with Mom's house (which is another vast wellspring of anger and frustration with him, but I promised I'd keep this short...).

aliantha wrote:

lorin wrote:Getting back to my point, isn't there a place for anger? Has it gotten to the point in our society where we are almost forced to forgive and forget? Is it religious dogma, Christ on the cross forgive them for they know not what they do mind set that almost makes us feel like we are obligated to forgive?

Yes, I think you're right. Which is one of my big problems with the whole "forgiveness" thing. You're a bad (fill in the monotheistic religion of your choice) if you can't forgive those who trespassed against you.

Being an atheist, I couldn't care less about any religious views/feelings on forgiveness. Change it to "You're a person in pain if you can't forgive those who trespassed against you."

But yeah, I also think forgiveness is the wrong word. I don't forgive my stepfather. I just don't think about him. And I don't forgive my mother. I just don't think about all that crap. (Possibly because she annoys the hell outta me in so many other ways that there's no time. ) It's harmful to the injured party to think about it all that much. Find a way to not.

I've come to the conclusion that "forgiveness" is the wrong word. It's more of an acknowledgement of the other person's flawed humanity. You're not forgiving them (if you absolutely must use that term) for the wrongs they perpetrated on you; you're forgiving them for being human.

That's very well said.

About a year ago, I realized for the first time that I understood my father. He might still be a virtual stranger, but I was able to see things (such as my existence) from what I imagine his perspective to be, and to see how that perspective may have shifted and matured in the twenty-plus years we were estranged. And to see how my mother influenced that estrangement, though that's a whole other kettle of snakes...

Family, eh?

Sorus wrote: About a year ago, I realized for the first time that I understood my father. He might still be a virtual stranger, but I was able to see things (such as my existence) from what I imagine his perspective to be, and to see how that perspective may have shifted and matured in the twenty-plus years we were estranged. And to see how my mother influenced that estrangement, though that's a whole other kettle of snakes...

Family, eh?

Interesting. Recently, after dealing with my father for the last 7 years without my mother in between I have begun to see things more from her perspective. A little part of me wonders if I could have lived with such a nightmare of a man.

aliantha wrote: I've come to the conclusion that "forgiveness" is the wrong word. It's more of an acknowledgement of the other person's flawed humanity. You're not forgiving them (if you absolutely must use that term) for the wrongs they perpetrated on you; you're forgiving them for being human. That doesn't mean they get a free pass for what they did, and it doesn't mean you're not going to guard against letting them -- or anybody else -- do it to you again. And it doesn't mean you have to stop being angry at them. Anger is an emotion, and you can't turn emotions on and off on a whim. Anger is a perfectly valid response to what happened to you. (Which I'm sure your $135/hr. therapist has told you on multiple occasions. ) And you built those defenses -- the shell of anger and whatever else you did -- for a perfectly good reason: at the time, you needed to protect yourself, and that's what you came up with, and it worked (at least to some degree), so you kept it.

But at some point, the anger, and the defenses you've erected against being hurt again, begin to hurt you. They're keeping you from fully living your life. So you have to take them down. It ain't easy. (I'm doing some work of my own along similar lines right now. Those emotions are well-rooted, and man oh man, you just keep digging and you think you've got it all, and then you find another damn taproot.)

Fist, I wouldn't call my brother's actions vicious, although.... Oh, all right, here's the story, which I'm pretty sure I haven't told here before. I'll try to keep it to the Reader's Digest version.

My parents had three children, but only two of us survived. My brother was 8 or 9 when my sister was born. By all accounts, she was a perfect baby. My brother reportedly doted on her. But she had been born with heart and lung defects, and was just short of 7 months old when she died.

Something more than a year later, I came along. You do the math -- I was the replacement child. (Which my father confirmed to me much later, in his own inimitable way .) My brother did *not* dote on me; our interactions involved him teasing me until I cried. You could write that off as typical sibling crap, except that I never felt that he liked me even a little bit. Eventually, I assumed he hated me because I wasn't Cynthia.

A year or so ago, he gave me not an apology, but an explanation. Turns out he was jealous of me. Our father had been abusive to him when he was little (which Mom had told me about), and he perceived me as the child they actually wanted. Which left me wondering how our parents managed to raise *both* of us to feel like they wanted a different kid.

Anyway, the point is that I'm still angry at him for bullying me; it's a perfectly valid response to what he put me through, and I doubt that will ever go away. And I'm still hyper-sensitive in my dealings with him -- I don't ask him for favors or tell him anything, really, about my life, because he has the same talent our father had of making you feel like an idiot about it. (Family-of-origin relationships suck. Please make a note of it. ) But I acknowledge that my brother was going through his own stuff back then, which he probably has not yet fully worked through and probably never will. And in that sense, I can forgive him for being human.

And I have a different family now -- my own kids, and the supportive friends I've made, both here on the Watch and in real life. The only time I think about my brother these days is in connection with Mom's house (which is another vast wellspring of anger and frustration with him, but I promised I'd keep this short...).

Ali, that is tough. I think, for me, what distinguishes it is the adult vs. child thing. We do things as a child that can be mean and/or vicious. As an adult I think we have the opportunity to make it right. To act like an adult. For that person to acknowledge the damage we've done and just to adjust their behavior. And sometimes, just being heard by the person that did the damage to you is enough. And sometimes, I think like Fist, that person becomes so unimportant to you that the anger dissipates. I would guess that the fact that your brother admitted he was damaged takes the power out of the anger. That it became less potent. For some reason my mind keeps flashing back to Covenant laughing at Foul.

I tried not to make this post about me but more about the concept of anger and forgiveness. But it just too personal a subject not to allow some of my history to influence the post. So it is what it is. I am friggin' seething and maybe the fact that I never told her about any of it is what keeps it so much in the forefront of my life. And the anger I had/have at her is also directed at myself. And Fist is probably very right, it is doing me a lot of harm.

You know, during the Fest three years ago, Donaldson told the audience that his father had committed suicide. Nothing before or after regarding these books affected me so deeply. It was like finally connecting the dots.

SerScot wrote:Lorin,

Is this the same documentary:

www.pbs.org/program/forgiveness/

It was quite powerful.

SB

The best I could do was extended clips. The four hour show is not on streaming and not on the net. Of course, they are for sale. But the clips are pretty good.

video.pbs.org/program/forgiveness/

Thanks, Sorus.

lorin wrote:You know, during the Fest three years ago, Donaldson told the audience that his father had committed suicide. Nothing before or after regarding these books affected me so deeply. It was like finally connecting the dots.

I remember you saying something similar at the time.

Did my brother's comments take some of the sting out of the anger? Nah. It was just that it was an explanation I hadn't considered. It didn't change the fact of what he did.

I'll give him a little bit of a pass for the age thing, but not much of one. Keep in mind that he's ten years older than I am, and this crap continued to go on until I was well into my teens -- which would put him in his 20s. He wasn't a kid anymore by then. By then, he was just a jerk.

Okay, here's another way to approach this letting-go-of-anger business. It helps me sometimes to realize that the longer I dwell on this stuff, the more I'm handing over my mind to the person who hurt me. Your mind is precious to you (I presume). Why are you handing over that precious real estate to a jerk? And doing it voluntarily? Because all the stuff that happened is in the past. The only thing that's presenting it to your mind's eye for your review, and keeping it there, is you.

Excellent point, ali. I've often said the same to my stepson. He's got emotional and mental disabilities, and very low in the normal range of IQ. He has INCREDIBLE difficulties with people in every setting he's ever been in. He just can't relate to anyone. He gets so mad at people sometimes, or hurt by them, or whatever, and goes on and on. For years sometimes. I tell him, "S/he's not at home thinking about you right now. Why are you thinking about him/her? They're literally in control of you right this moment. They don't even know it, but you've given them that power."

A friend of mine described forgiving her own father- for borderline sexual abuse, no less- as not absolving him or even forgiving his actions, but as coming to peace with all the ways he had shaped her. She looked at herself, she looked at who he was and what he had done to her, she came to an understanding of who she was and how much of him was in her....and she accepted herself. In that acceptance, she no longer needed anything from him. She forgave him because in a way he was no longer necessary. In many ways I think we harbour anger against our parents when we're still looking to them to heal or protect us, resenting them because they failed in that. She didn't need him for any of those things, so forgiveness was as simple as just letting him be the person he is.

Lorin, I think you still feel you need something from your mother. I think Fist is right. Harsh as it might sound, simplified as it might sound, you need to make peace. You literally have no other choice.

Dunno if they have resources or whatever, but maybe check this out: forgivenesschallenge.com/

--A

I'm like Fist, I recognize the power of forgiveness, but that doesn't mean it's easy, or that I could tell you or anyone how to get "there".

I am reminded of 2 themes in Christianity that reflect on this issue however, humility and recognition. Humility, which Jesus was pretty adamant about, is the idea that I have no rights, b/c I'm too worried about others' well being. You can't offend me, hurt me, anger me, b/c I'm worried about why you feel the need to do these things. I'm more concerned about the joy you miss out on (and steal from those around you) rather than what your actions to do me.

And by recognition, I mean recognizing what I've done towards my Lord, the sins I commit on a daily basis. He has said He has forgiven them all. Jesus told the parable about the man forgiven a large debt, then had another guy thrown in jail for owing him pennies. The master found out, and had him thrown in jail until every penny was paid. The guy didn't recognize what he was forgiven of, and was unable to forgive others. This means I don't forgive another b/c I'm obligated, but b/c I recognize (I hope anyway ).

Forgiveness is typically given to someone who has wronged you (or perhaps a perceived wrong) and it doesn't require acceptance of the person you are forgiving or even their admission of their wrongs against you. Forgiveness goes hand in hand with 'grace'. Grace in this instance is being able to forgive even though its unearned forgiveness. The best way to describe this is 'letting it go'. Stop hanging on to whatever it is that you have forgiven them for. Because you arent hurting them, you are instead creating a burden for yourself that you are carrying around. Weight that you need to let go of.

And then give other people the ability in your eyes to be imperfect. Love others, warts and all.

Aliantha,

In the documentary I attempted to link to above they discuss the example of the Amish who invited the family of the man who killed their daughters to the memorial for those children so that the killer's family could mourn the passing of the man who killed their daughters.

In your opinion was such an effort at compassion and forgiveness wrong?

I think Foamfollwer summed it up. "Joy is in the ears that hear." Our lives will be brutal to us and kind in equal measure, but in the end it is we ourselves who will rise above or succumb to this. If it hurts, forget the anger - fling it aside like so much of yesterdays dross, it serves no purpose. Live your life forwards, the Sun will rise tomorrow.