9 year old kills her instructor with an Uzi

[sgt.null]

finn - you will break the interwebs like that.

but thank you.

[peter]

You couldn't fucking invent it if you tried! How could this happen - TWICE - in any country outside the Hindu Kush or the Belgian Congo, let alone an advanced western world leader.

Let's just look at the events. Parents book themselves and their nine year old daughter onto the 'Bullets and Burgers Tour' run by some leisure activity company in Arizona. The tour tales them to 'The Last Stop' firing range where the instructor hands her an Uzi sub-machine gun to try out. As her proud parents film her on their mobiles the instructor reaches across and switches the gun from single to multiple shot mode - and the resultant recoil causes the girl to loose controll and shoot him in the head. Dead.

Six years ago the same type of accident resulted in the death of an 8yo boy and atleast his home state of Conneticut reacted by banning the use of SMG's by under 16's. Even this is unlikely to occur in Arizona apparently, due to it's deeply entrenced gun-culture.

Jeez! This is just wrong on so many levels! How can this happen. How can it be legal to allow a minor to fire a gun - ever! A SMG? What fresh lunacy is this? What are SMG's even doing out in the broader community - they're battlefield weapons fer Christ's sake! Perhaps if I turn to the NRA's new feature on it's womens twitter account [posted two days after the above event] I'll be granted some enlightenment as to how this works. Now, what was it called - Ah yes "Seven Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range."

[aliantha]

Welcome to America, peter.

If we're going to allow people to own guns (which I'm not opposed to -- my father did), then people ought to be trained on how to use them. But the 9-year-old was just too freaking young to handle a gun with that much power. Parents and instructor both share the blame.

And as we said in another thread here, that poor little girl is going to have to live with the knowledge that she killed somebody.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Was this meant for another thread and you accidentally created a new one or did you mean to create a new thread?

The phrase "you couldn't fucking invent if if you tried" sounded like a reply to something someone else said, hence my confusion. If you meant to start a new thread then no problem.

No, children should not be learning to shoot anything more powerful than a single-shot .22.

[ussusimiel]

peter, I think that this one is already up and running here.

And you need to remember that you risk being labelled a UK EuroTroll* if you persist in your hoplophobia

I have learned the hard way that kneejerk, impassioned anti-gun sentiment gets short shrift here. If you want to argue guns with people who regularly handle, carry and shoot them, then you'd better know the 2nd Amendment off by heart and you'd better know how to breakdown and reassemble an AR-15 blindfolded

u.


*

The UK EuroTroll. The most common manifestation of EuroTroll, the UK EuroTroll is often sexually ambiguous and prone to making homoerotic comments. Vulgar and hostile, UK EuroTrolls are also the most hoplophobic* of trollkind. The breed is characterized by a penchant for pontificating from ignorance and will speak at great lengths about subjects on which its kind are totally uninformed.

[EDIT: to fix typos]

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Merged topics.

Nothing personal, peter--don't let this dissuade you from creating new topics when you think a topic is needed.

[Avatar]

Good post U.

But I think (without reading back) that pretty much everybody thought this was a bad idea.

--A

[sgt.null]

but banning kids from firing any gun is a horrible idea. I grew up shooting. lots of kids learn to hunt at a young age. some kids get into competitive shooting. some just like plinking. the actiosn of the few should not deprive the responsible majority.

[Avatar]

They always do Sarge.

--A

[peter]

No Hashi - it was meant to be a new thread, but it seems once again my [perfunctory] attempt at research [ie scanning the first half dozen or so threads in the Tank] failed to reveal an existing/related topic!

The amazing thing about this occurence is that of all places, you would expect the USA to be more aware of the risks - and thus more atuned to the safe handling - of firearms, than anywhere else.. Guess it's just another case of "give that man a well earned Darwin Award." [Like a guy in the UK who blew himself up a week or two ago trying to charge his electronic cigarette inside the oxygen tent in which he was bed-ridden. Another 'failed line' naturally selected out of the next generation breeding stock.]

[Hashi Lebwohl]

No Hashi - it was meant to be a new thread, but it seems once again my [perfunctory] attempt at research [ie scanning the first half dozen or so threads in the Tank] failed to reveal an existing/related topic!

No worries--I might have merged them a little too quickly. Next time I will wait to hear back from someone before merging threads to make sure I don't break a new train of thought someone was trying to pursue.

[ussusimiel]

No Hashi - it was meant to be a new thread, but it seems once again my [perfunctory] attempt at research [ie scanning the first half dozen or so threads in the Tank] failed to reveal an existing/related topic!

We'll have to educate you on how to use the 'Search' option in the menu. It does take a bit of getting used to.

A couple of tips:

• - just above the 'Search' button there is a:
  
  • • 'Display Results as:' radio button
  change this to 'Posts' as it usually gives better results.
  
  
  - use the '+' sign for multiple word searches
  
  e.g 'uzi + girl + 9' currently returns three results

It only took me about three years to get the hang of it

And don't worry about creating duplicate threads, our immoderately excellent mod, has the patience and wizardry of Adept!

u.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I do only that which I am able to do.

[Ananda]

Your poor choices will cost you your life, actually. And, before that, your health.

Shaming people? Should we start with you or is that reserved for other people only? I am not christian, but I remeber this thing about stones and who should cast the first one.

A person's poor choices which negatively impact only them are not only acceptable but allowable. If I want to start smoking a pack a day again then I don't have to answer to anyone except my wife. If I choose to engage in some harder chemical entertainment then I don't have to answer to anyone as long as I don't get caught by the police, drive under that influence, or come to work under that influence.

If my poor choice results in a negative consequence to someone else then I deserve all the public humiliation and/or legal consequences which will come my way. In this instance, it was only luck which saved the child's life yet resulted in the death of the instructor so the parents willingly put the child into a position where severe harm could result and reckless endangerment is a crime. The potential to charge them with a crime is there. I wouldn't recommend that because it won't solve anything but I suppose it could serve a lesson to other parents about which poor decisions they should not make.

If you aren't a Christian, Ananda, then why are you trying to use a lesson from the Bible in a directed manner towards Sarge?

Sorry for the delayed reaction. Been busy and then sort of forgot about the watch again.

I agree that people should do they want. I was pointing out to Null that his idea for public shaming is absurd since we could all be candidates for it because we all do stupid thing. Also, I quote some christian philosophy text because I thought it was apropos. I have quoted the vedas or the Bhagavad Gita before without a problem.

Nullo, if you think public shaming is a good idea, can you say how you think it should work? Who will choose who to shame? Who will do the shaming? How will people be shamed? Just curious how you envision that process working.

[sgt.null]

public shaming starts with being allowed to point out when people are stupid. we need to be unafraid of doing this.

I can not tell you how many times an idiot parent has killed their child by neglect or recklessness and I have heard some well meaning bleeding heart argue against jail/prison with "the loss of their child is punishment enough."

aaaaaaaaaargggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

THEY ARE THE REASON THEIR KID IS DEAD!

it is the argument against punishing a kid who kills his parent by pointing out he is now an orphan.

when reporting point out idiocy. when on trial it must be pointed out. when handing out sentences it must be pointed out.

we live in a world where commercials must have taglines warnings us that cars do not actually fly. really? we must point out with labels that plastic bags are not toys for children. really?

we have become afraid of calling stupid people by their correct name.

[Ananda]

public shaming starts with being allowed to point out when people are stupid. we need to be unafraid of doing this.

I can not tell you how many times an idiot parent has killed their child by neglect or recklessness and I have heard some well meaning bleeding heart argue against jail/prison with "the loss of their child is punishment enough."

aaaaaaaaaargggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

THEY ARE THE REASON THEIR KID IS DEAD!

it is the argument against punishing a kid who kills his parent by pointing out he is now an orphan.

when reporting point out idiocy. when on trial it must be pointed out. when handing out sentences it must be pointed out.

we live in a world where commercials must have taglines warnings us that cars do not actually fly. really? we must point out with labels that plastic bags are not toys for children. really?

we have become afraid of calling stupid people by their correct name.

But aren't you also behaving stupidly? Should everyone who meets you point it out? I would hate a society like that because I do stupid things all the time. Or, is this system of pointing out things others do just for the things you condemn, but not the things you do?

Of course labels like you say are not so effective. There are grams of fat and sugar on food packets and people still eat too much or drink large quantities of colas and so till they look like a pillow with a head on top, commiting slow motion suicide. There are messages on cigarettes telling you that you are ruining your health by smoking, but people still smoke and then get sick and die from it. Are we going to put the fat people on display for a public humiliation? The smokers?

If it is just criminals you want to shame, then no need because they already go to prison. Who, exactly, do you want to shame? And who is it that decides which things are worthy of public shaming and which things are not? Will I need to wear a large letter A on my shirt if I have sex with the mailman?

And, what do you think you will accomplish with all this harshness and public shame? Have you really thought this idea through, or is it just an emotional ventation?

[sgt.null]

you think prison is a punishment? I work in one and can tell you that for most of the criminals prison is a mere interruption of their thuggery.

the prison culture is practically worshipped now. I have entire families that are locked up. women are constantly bringing their babies in on weekends to see their baby daddies. idiots walk around the streets with their pants sagging in a mirror of inmates clothing styles. (there are no belts in prison.)

their used to be shame tied to being locked up. now society finds every reason to blame other factors. authority is under attack at every level.

when one of these animals is finally executed, throngs of morons protest outside against the death penalty with nary a thought of the brutality enacted upon the victims of these parasites.

I realize that all hope is lost. I keep thinking there will be some breaking point when polite society has had enough. but no matter how many children are raped, no matter how many innocents are killed... nothing.

instead we get the apologists and the blame artists. people determined that entire swaths of our society be given a free pass on current evils for past evils. we excuse the massive amounts of misdeeds. psychologists and lawyers and politicians make careers out of "saving" the worst that humanity has to offer. bleeding heart judges can't move that revolving door fast enough. juries beg for reasons not to convict.

and people on message boards continue to argue about the futility of it all...

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Most people think they know what prisons and jails are about, how that world works, and the psychology of the people who are in, or constantly in and out of, that system. Those people have no clue whatsoever. They should spend a month in a prison or a county jail and I guarantee their perspective on the entire criminal justice system would change dramatically.

You can simulate a jail environment in your own house, if you want to. Remove all creature comforts from your bedroom, including the bed, as well as stripping your floor down to the concrete (I suppose you could leave the bare tile if you don't have carpet). Maybe you get to have a radio and if you are lucky a small TV, but probably nothing like a toaster oven or microwave. Your three meals will be served to you according to someone else's schedule and not when you are actually hungry. Oh, and you had better eat what they serve you because you may not have any other food due to lack of money for what they call "commissary" or because someone else stole it from you. You do not get to leave your bedroom at all. You get a change of clothes and a fresh towel once per week.
I forget the rest but this is all first-hand detail from my brother, who qualified as a "wild child" from the time he was a teenager until...well, until now, actually. Oh--and someone whom you do not know will be assigned as your roommate. You have no idea what they did to wind up there; chances are it was worse than what you did. You might want to sleep with one eye open.

[Ananda]

you think prison is a punishment? I work in one and can tell you that for most of the criminals prison is a mere interruption of their thuggery.

the prison culture is practically worshipped now. I have entire families that are locked up. women are constantly bringing their babies in on weekends to see their baby daddies. idiots walk around the streets with their pants sagging in a mirror of inmates clothing styles. (there are no belts in prison.)

their used to be shame tied to being locked up. now society finds every reason to blame other factors. authority is under attack at every level.

when one of these animals is finally executed, throngs of morons protest outside against the death penalty with nary a thought of the brutality enacted upon the victims of these parasites.

I realize that all hope is lost. I keep thinking there will be some breaking point when polite society has had enough. but no matter how many children are raped, no matter how many innocents are killed... nothing.

instead we get the apologists and the blame artists. people determined that entire swaths of our society be given a free pass on current evils for past evils. we excuse the massive amounts of misdeeds. psychologists and lawyers and politicians make careers out of "saving" the worst that humanity has to offer. bleeding heart judges can't move that revolving door fast enough. juries beg for reasons not to convict.

and people on message boards continue to argue about the futility of it all...

I didn't say whether I thought prison was or was not a punishment at all. That was just your tangent. You didn't answer the questions about how this awesome public shaming will work. Who decides what to shame? Who shames these people? Are other "stupid" people and "animals" allowed to shame when it is not their turn to be shamed? Can a grossly obese person shame an obsessive smoker who, in turn, can shame the obese person when it is his turn in the rack? And, do both of those get to shame the woman who cheats on her husband later?

[Vraith]

you think prison is a punishment? I work in one and can tell you that for most of the criminals prison is a mere interruption of their thuggery.

the prison culture is practically worshipped now. I have entire families that are locked up. women are constantly bringing their babies in on weekends to see their baby daddies. idiots walk around the streets with their pants sagging in a mirror of inmates clothing styles. (there are no belts in prison.)

their used to be shame tied to being locked up. now society finds every reason to blame other factors. authority is under attack at every level.

when one of these animals is finally executed, throngs of morons protest outside against the death penalty with nary a thought of the brutality enacted upon the victims of these parasites.

I realize that all hope is lost. I keep thinking there will be some breaking point when polite society has had enough. but no matter how many children are raped, no matter how many innocents are killed... nothing.

instead we get the apologists and the blame artists. people determined that entire swaths of our society be given a free pass on current evils for past evils. we excuse the massive amounts of misdeeds. psychologists and lawyers and politicians make careers out of "saving" the worst that humanity has to offer. bleeding heart judges can't move that revolving door fast enough. juries beg for reasons not to convict.

and people on message boards continue to argue about the futility of it all...

I might agree with you. Except you are suffering under the myth that the U.S. is getting scarier and more violent all the time...and that is in fact false. Not just a little false, but outrageously false.
And the other fact that imprisonment never, ever, was shown to have any good effects on society at larger...and often does the opposite.

It might, just maybe, perhaps, make some difference exactly who goes to prison, when they do, and why.

You also just might want to look at the similarities in the processes of making a great soldier and a great criminal and ponder that for a while.
[there are also some differences...those also are worthy of your consideration].
And a host of other things that create the situation that you claim is the result of the justice system not having a big enough boot.